Jan. 24, 2025

361 Philip Gibbons - From Millionaire to Podcaster: Bite-Sized History Revolution

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Ever wondered how to turn your passion for history into a successful podcast? Philip Gibbons, host of Bite Sized Biographies, shares his journey and insights on creating engaging historical content for a modern audience. Philip Gibbons, host of the popular podcast Bite Sized Biographies, joins us to discuss his unique approach to making history accessible and entertaining. With a background in Fortune 500 companies and a stint on "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?", Philip brings a diverse perspective to his podcasting journey.

In this episode, we explore Philip’s process for condensing 700-page biographies into digestible, hour-long episodes. He shares his production workflow, marketing strategies, and the challenges of growing a niche podcast in a crowded market. Philip’s commitment to quality content and his love for history shine through as he discusses the evolution of his show over 150 episodes.

We also delve into the importance of email marketing for podcasters, the potential of AI in content creation, and Philip’s thoughts on navigating the current political climate. His insights on perseverance and finding joy in the podcasting process offer valuable lessons for both new and experienced content creators.

If you're passionate about history, podcasting, or simply curious about turning your interests into a successful creative project, this episode is a must-listen. Tune in to gain practical advice and inspiration from Philip Gibbons' podcasting journey.

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Key Takeaways

0:00 Intro

5:31 Passion for history and podcast concept

11:22 Production workflow and challenges

19:57 Marketing strategies and audience growth

25:53 YouTube presence and potential AI integration

33:03 Email marketing and audience engagement

41:51 Future goals and podcast progress

48:58 Most misunderstood aspect of the host

Tweetable Quotes

"I take that 700 page book that you will never read and digest it into two parts, less than an hour. For some very famous people, or even some oddball people you've never heard of, I kind of do that process for you in a way that makes it interesting to most people, even if they have no interest or would define history as boring."

"If you're interested in podcasting, don't try to chase audience. Find something that you really like and want to do because you're going to last 10 episodes if you're not really jazzed by podcasting. You've got to find your niche, you've got to find an audience, and you also have to find something that motivates you to keep posting this stuff."

"I wouldn't have cranked out 150 episodes if I didn't love what I do. Clearly, I have thought about other topics, yet my perspective is I've known other podcasters who've searched out other topics and they found they didn't even do as well with their second or third topic because they got so stretched thin that the whole thing fell apart after that."

Resources Mentioned

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/philipdgibbons/

Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/phil.gibbons

X - https://x.com/PhilipDGibbons

Podcast Junkies Website: podcastjunkies.com

Podcast Junkies YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/Podcastjunkies/

Podcast Junkies Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/podcastjunkiesjunkies/

Podcast Junkies Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/podcastjunkies

Podcast Junkies Twitter: https://twitter.com/podcast_junkies

Podcast Junkies LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/podcastjunkies

The Podosphere: https://www.thepodosphere.com/

Podcast Index, Value4Value & NewPodcastApps: https://podcastindex.org/

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Podcast Production & Marketing by FullCast

Mentioned in this episode:

Podcast Blueprint 101

Transcript

Harry Duran 00:00:00:

 

So, Phil Gibbons, host of Bite Sized Biographies, thank you so much for joining me on Podcast Junkies.

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:00:05:

 

It's my pleasure.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:00:07:

 

So I believe the outreach came through the Podcast Junkies website. If I remember correctly. I think you had listened to an episode or a friend connected us, is that correct?

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:00:17:

 

So I heard about, I was actually on the podcast called what was that like? That's hosted by Scott Johnson.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:00:24:

 

That's right.

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:00:24:

 

And I talked to Scott about, you know, hey, how did you start your podcast? Or, you know, because his podcast is pretty high profile at this point. And he directed me to you and he said, well, I just appeared on another show called Podcast Junkies and they, you know, in that conversation, I'll tell you everything you need to know. So I figured, hey, let's get ahold of Harry and try to get on his show, you know, leave no stone unturned, as you know, in this crazy thing we're trying to do.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:00:50:

 

Well, it's interesting because most podcasters, I think when they get stuck started, they're under the impression that they can just record and people will magically find their show or they think like this one off topic that they created that people have other interest in. And it's a big wake up call. And that's why they call it pod fading. Like most get to episode seven and they realize this is way harder than I thought it would be. And so I'm curious with your show, let's rewind the clock back and give folks a bit of a background about you. So prior to launching the show, you know, we don't need the full resume here, but obviously, like the Cliff Notes version of what you've been working on or what you were up to before you started the show.

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:01:30:

 

Well, I had a very, very traditional kind of background. I worked in Fortune 500 companies for a couple banks, consulting firm, an insurance company. And about the year 2000, I. And this was why I was on Scott Johnson's show. But I appeared on the television show who Wants to Be a Millionaire? And I won a half a million dollars. And in that particular moment in time, you know, that's something that's pretty jarring. And you take a step back and you don't have to worry about paying them rent on a monthly basis. And so I figured, you know, there's gotta be more to life than working for a Fortune 500 company, making somebody else wealthy. So I decided that at that point, kind of, I didn't want to be completely untethered. So I got involved in teaching and I taught in the LAUSD for about 12 years. But I was working on other projects, mostly publishing, journalism and very traditional kind of media. And I actually made a documentary film in 2014. Has to do with the California death penalty. You can watch it on YouTube. It's called the Devil and the Death Penalty. And we, you know, we could talk about that for hours. We don't have time. But my takeaway from that was other. I had to hire other people to film it, edit it, et cetera. And I realized if I wanted to keep making documentary films, I had to kind of get into do it yourself mode. So I took a, I actually took a master's two year program in digital program programming. And about halfway through that, I realized, you know, I heard about podcasts and that was really energizing to me. And basically, you know, documentary films are a really excellent way to turn a lot of money into a small amount of money. Most of them, you know, I was in some small festivals, et cetera. But, you know, you don't. It's a very closed world and it's very hard even for people who are high profile documentary filmmakers to get much attention. Whereas on the other hand, podcasting, frankly, and you already mentioned this, it seems very easy to penetrate the podcast world. All you need is a microphone and all you need to do is upload some information. So for me, having some publishing ideas that never really got fleshed out, and being a lover of history, I decided to put together this podcast which the first five episodes was my master's thesis. So the last year of my two year program, I basically assembled this podcast and you know, got up and running and got a website and got also professional help from people within this program who helped me do a lot of that to get me off the ground. And again, as you said, for me though, even I wasn't sure what my expectations were. But I just loved the idea and I love the medium and I love history. And so I figured, look, maybe nobody's going to listen to this, maybe a lot of people are going to listen to this, but. And which by the way, I would recommend to most people, if you're interested in podcasting, don't try to chase audience. Find something that you really like and want to do because as you've said, you know, you're going to last 10 episodes if you're not really jazzed by podcasting. Because you've got to find your niche, you got to find an audience, and you also have to find something that motivates you to keep posting this stuff because that's not always easy to do. So here I am, you know, 150 episodes later, and we can talk about, you know, where I've gone and the profile I've kind of created, but also kind of the challenges and the challenges I'm still facing.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:04:46:

 

Thanks for that overview. That's extremely helpful. And so what I love to do, especially in the podcast world, is I like to entice people to, like, dig deeper and get the true story. So rather than dig into the stuff that I'm curious about in terms of like getting on who Wants to Be a Millionaire and what that experience is like, we'll just direct people to that specific episode with Scott and I'll be listening as well, to understand. But obviously, if you think about what it takes to get on a show like that and what it takes to succeed on a show like that. And then related to your interest in history, would you say that you've always been someone who's just curious about history or just a learner at heart, and you've always been the type of person who values knowledge and is always looking to increase your own?

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:05:31:

 

Well, you know, a lot of people hear the word history, and again, having taught for a while too, you know, the mere topic is, and I'm always amazed by this, but some people are just totally uninterested in any aspect of history they quote. And the word I always hear is it's boring. And even from a young age, I love to read, but I especially love to read about history. So I don't find it. It's a topic, to me, that I find to be entertaining. I mean, there's nothing I would, I like to do better than find a topic and find a book on it and sit down and read about it. And, and frankly, the podcast itself, I do take, you know, if people ask me to sum it up in 10 to 15 seconds, I basically take that 700 page book that you will never read. Even some people with the best of intentions buy books and they sit, you know, put it on their night table, and they either never read it or they put it, you know, send it back to the library. Well, I digest that book into, you know, in my case now, two parts, less than an hour. So for some very famous people, or even some oddball people you've never heard of, I kind of do that process for you in a way that I think makes it interesting to most people, even if they have no interest or would, quote, define history as boring. But again, to focus specifically on your question, I've never found history to be something that was kind of grueling or an academic discipline. I've always found it to be just fascinating and entertaining. And again, that, you know, you can see why I have a history podcast and everybody has interests like that. But in my case, history and especially traveling to places related to the history, I understand, are two things I just love to do.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:07:08:

 

Have you been a fan of or have you heard of Dan Carlin's hardcore history?

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:07:13:

 

So, you know, obviously, yes, answer yes. And Dan Carlin, it was interesting because that was one of the. Everyone when the topic of podcast came up, obviously Dan Carlin came up because he was, you know, a pioneer and also somebody who, again, as you know, is unusual in the field because he's actually able to make a living and has become quite prominent. And I like Dan Carlin and I can listen to his podcasts, but unlike my podcast, you know, he gets pretty granular. You know, if people said, well, you want to listen to a history podcast, recommend one, I'm not sure that would be the one I would recommend, you know, because again, only for people like me who I think are way into it, you know, are going to be. Because he goes on these tangents even within his topic that really are kind of unrelated. And again, unless you're somebody like me, I'm not. I think, you know, you may get lost in that whole process. But yes, I'm aware of him. And I guess if I aspire to be anybody in podcasting, it would probably be Dan Carlin.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:08:09:

 

How many iterations did you go through when you came up with the concept for your show? Obviously, with a name like Bite Size, it's already telling people what they can expect. It's so funny because I just posted, I think, on LinkedIn yesterday or the day before about this idea of micro podcasts. Like, I interviewed years ago, Minion Fogarty from Grammar Girl, and she's got the Quick and Dirty Podcast and Network. So there's an appetite for people who are on the go and really need data condensed. And that's why you'll see waves of this happen. Cliff Notes back in my day. And then I think I forget the name of this guy who used to summarize books recently as well. So there's always going to be an appetite for this. So I'm curious what was floating around in your head in terms of concepts for ideas and formats and how you decided to land on bite size and biographies specifically?

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:08:59:

 

Well, you know, needless to say, you want to explain to people literally with a Title because as you know, they're scrolling so many different things. And I tried to kind of match up the title with again, that kind of sound bite idea of what this is. And again, the whole idea is you're going to find out about an individual or an incident in less than an hour. And I think in the podcasting world, where I think so many people have very short periods of time, you know, literally I think 30 to 40 minutes, I thought that would be very attractive. As far as iterations of, you know, did I try different formats? There were two things that I kind of adhered to that I wanted my podcast to be. And I guess the only way to explain it is what I didn't want it to be. And most and many. And you may have your own perspective about humanizing hosts and all, but I do not do chit chat. I do not do. I don't have anyone that I interview on the podcast. It's just very. Just the facts, ma'am. You know, and it's not like I'm in a monastery somewhere. And it's very austere. I try to be upbeat and I try to have a personality, but I get right into it and I start talking about the topic. And I think for some people, you know, I've gotten comments from people and they say they really enjoy that aspect of the podcast because as you know, there's so many podcasts that you go five or 10 minutes in and they're still talking about, you know, the cosmopolitans they had over the weekend and stuff. And that to me is just maddening because it's just okay, you know, 30 seconds a minute tops. But you get to the point, you know, so. And if I only have an hour with a 700 page book, then I gotta be pretty economical as to what I'm talking about. So the podcast at its very first episode is pretty much, you know, what it is today. It's pretty much the same format and the same idea. And you know what you're going to get when you download my podcast.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:10:45:

 

So talk a little bit about your production workflow. Cause I'm sure you know this is a podcast for podcasters about podcasting. So people love to kind of geek out and hear how people kind of plan theirs and everyone does things differently. But I'm curious, you know, you talk about a 700 page book and I imagine you have to have read the book if you're going to be doing a summary about it. And I think about you being at 150 episodes plus in. So I'm doing the math on that, and it seems like a lot of work. So I'm curious if you could kind of like break some of that down. And they may have changed since you started, but I'm curious. Let's focus on first, on when you got started, like what that workflow looks like.

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:11:22:

 

Well, needless to say, the first few episodes were topics that I knew a lot about. You know, again, I mean, I majored in history, so for me, it's not like auto mechanics where it's, you know, step by step. I have to understand things that I'm doing. But I typically pick topics I knew something about to begin with. I even knew pretty much much the books, you know, the two or three essential books to that whatever particular topic. So it's not as if I would read them cover to cover. It's kind of I basically. But I do write out all the episodes myself, and that's the first thing I do between having the two or three authoritative books on a topic that I probably know a little bit about. Depending on the topic, I'll sort of get an Obviously, being a reader, I'll digest that information. And I think it was Truman Capote who said he always decides what the ending of his whatever work or book he's ever written. He always literally decides what the last page is. But in my case, I always kind of decide what the intro is going to be that's going to grab people. And also pretty much the, you know, how it's going to end, how this episode that I usually know something about is going to end. But again, you got to fill up anywhere from 25 to 40 pages per episode. And that is an obstacle for me because, you know, some people have become, I think, prominent in podcasting because they could put together an episode, say in a week or even two or three days, especially if they're interviewing other people. In my case, it's pretty hard for me to get something posted. It takes me at least two to three weeks and frequently may take depending on the topic. It may take as much as a month. But then after I get the script, I sit down and I am not a technical person and I had to learn this stuff from. You know, some people took to this very easily because they already worked in a technical field with mics and recording and editing and all that stuff. I did not do that. I literally had to take a course about it. And I basically record on a Zoom digital microphone with two Audio Technica mics that are very inexpensive but that I'm very much on top of. And if you listen to my sound, like, my sound is like, people have said, wow, do you do that on a studio or whatever? And I say, no, I actually do it in my own. It's a small room. So it's kind of. That part of it works out very well. But again, I'm almost an amateur in terms of the production, you know, quality of it and the sound quality. But it does sound really good for what I'm trying to do. And the editing I used to use when I was contemplating documentaries, I would use Premiere Pro for video editing. And the one thing about Premiere Pro is you don't have to edit video on that. You can edit audio on that. And I know there are many other programs and ways of editing audio that people might hear that and say, premiere Pro, that's a little kooky, you know, but for me, it works because I already knew how to use that program. And as you know, that's if you know how to use something and it works, you know, basically go with it. And that's what I've done pretty much. And again, I'm sure there's other programs I could learn, but because I've never really had to, that's kind of how I'll record it on that digital mic zoom recorder. Excuse me, I'll take the chip, I'll plug it into my computer, I'll load up Premiere Pro and start editing and then basically download it, you know, edit into Premiere Pro, get it up on, you know, in an audio capacity, and then I upload it through. By the way, my provider, I guess, or aggregator, whatever you want to call it, is blueberry, so. Blueberry WordPress, so. And again, when I was first starting this, and I don't know if they'd be able to do it now, but they literally walked me A to Z. How to get on Apple iTunes, you know, how to upload through WordPress. And for me, I'm also a rote learner. So once I figured out how to do this three or four or five times, you know, I could almost do it in my sleep. And again, that's why I don't really vary the workflow or change very much of that, because I understand how to do this. And anyone listening to that might think, gee, that's unusual or different or whatever, you know, it's always worked for me. If you listen to the podcast for no other reason, just to check out the sound quality, I think you'll be pretty impressed. And in fact, I did, at Podcast Movement, I did a Lecture or a presentation on how to build your own sound studio for less than $500 and was pretty well received because there were people there, they were stunned, you know, because they listened to it and they have all these boom mics and all this stuff set up, and it cost them a lot more money, and they were kind of surprised. So, you know, away you go. And away. I've gone for 150 episodes and has.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:15:47:

 

The workflow changed at all since you started?

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:15:50:

 

I would say no. I mean, it's that process, you know, do the research. The whole time thinking about. For me, the thing that I've had to do to make it go f is to basically imagine while you're researching something, because there are topics I've picked that I know nothing about them. And so, you know, you've got to anticipate trying to get this done so it doesn't take you six weeks. You know, while I'm researching this stuff frequently, I will, you know, basically have. I'll be anticipating that process. But no, I'd say the workflow has stayed the same throughout. And again, I wish I could do this so that I could put it together in a week's time, but that's just the nature of the beast, you know, you can't really do that.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:16:28:

 

And so how often do you release episodes? It's just whatever amount of time it takes for you to do the production?

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:16:33:

 

Yeah, pretty much. And I'd have to say that it's sorted. Like, for instance, this is the longest lag time I've had. I'm probably gonna post an episode the next day or so. And it's been probably five weeks since I've posted an episode. But a lot of that had to do with, you know, Christmas and some, you know, family issues. Cause my wife and I had to leave town, et cetera. So. But typically three to four weeks, there'll be a new episode, and there have been since 2015.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:17:00:

 

And so when you first released it, did you have an idea, like, who the intended audience would be and how you'd be distributing it and promoting it?

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:17:09:

 

Well, that's a really good question. And, you know, the first part of this was, as you know, because you deal with, I'm sure, with people who have no concept of podcasting and what it takes, et cetera. But I just thought that the topics themselves, as you mentioned, and this is kind of an illusion, I think, but that, hey, this would be so fascinating that I. There's gotta be people out there who would listen. And I think I was Surprised as to how many people initially did listen. But then, as you know, you also, you hit a plateau. And I had to go through the usual, you know, jump through the usual hoops which involve social media, trying to appear on other podcasts, et cetera, et cetera. But it always started to, you know, it kept growing and it grew up until, as I think you've heard the story, until Apple kind of changed their platform about a year and a half ago. And that greatly affected me because every month I had an increase in downloads and suddenly, not only did I not have an increase, I basically was seeing, you know, a significant fall off which I've tried to overcome. You know, I'm still working on that, and again, mostly through word of mouth and social media, I think, and especially LinkedIn has been great for me because again, you know, this is not chit chat, it's not Entertainment Tonight or something like that. So LinkedIn, I found interest groups that correlate very much with a lot of the topics. It may not even be history, but it may be like true crime. So I'll go to, you know, whatever that crime. For instance, bank robbery, you know, the Great Train Robbery in Britain. And so their whole interest groups in law enforcement and security and they have hundreds of thousands of members. So that's, you know, you can see an appreciable increase in certain episodes. So, but again, to focus on your question, as you know, that's hard. I mean, you can't, you know, you, everyone has out there thinks that, hey, if I have a good enough idea, I'm going to be a superstar. And unless you already are a superstar, which always frustrates me, you know, it's going to be, you're going to see very incremental, I think, increases in your audience. I don't, I mean, yes, it has happened, but overnight success in podcasting, I think is a really difficult thing to do.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:19:15:

 

There's just so much noise out there and there's so much competition for people's time. I think I've heard people say that most active podcast listeners have about five or six shows in their regular queue. And so you really have to work hard to kind of knock one of those out or, you know, they happen to have one of those episodes or shows that's not publishing for a while, then they have bandwidth to kind of explore new shows that are in their genre. But like, I totally agree, it's hard, and you've got to work harder to be where your listeners are. So when you finish producing an episode, and obviously A lot of work goes into weeks of work, go into producing one of your episodes. What's your plan for promotion and marketing at that point?

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:19:57:

 

Well, the typical process is I'll get on all the social media platforms and especially LinkedIn and I will have a lot of my interest groups already sort of pre sorted out, so I will post. And to me, what I found too is through Wikimedia and all, there's an amazing number of photographs that you can use that are royalty free. You're not going to have any issues. They're public domain, which again, I urge people, don't use music, you know, don't use photographs that even possibly could be owned by somebody else because these folks will find you. I mean, I know of people who have posted stuff and they've gotten letters and they've gotten communications and it's cost him a few dollars. So I urge you to go to Wikimedia, use music from, you know, YouTube archive and all that good stuff. But I go to say LinkedIn and I will find a picture that is a really like, I did an episode on Norwegian commandos that blew up a heavy water plant in Norway. It's a fascinating story. It was a big drama in Norway, but I just took the Norwegian flag and a picture of Adolf Hitler and I posted that on LinkedIn. And you know, as you would know, I know this sounds a little quirky or whatever, but anyone who sees a picture like that, their attention is drawn to it. So a lot of my marketing is, what picture am I going to use for this episode? And so I'm already thinking about that as well. And I'll post it on LinkedIn, I'll post it on Twitter, which I found to be not particularly effective. And I know that's even in flux as we speak here now. And I'll post it on Facebook, which is, I have a Facebook site, but it's only had a modest amount of success. And then I'll go to other Facebook sites and other LinkedIn sites. You know, I'll post this information with a very brief description that's gonna hopefully catch people's attention. And that is the marketing. And I have to tell you that I know it's not enough. You know, I know I need more. Part of it is trying to do interviews like this. But, you know, I wish I had the magic wand. I wish I had that. You know, I've advertised in newsletters and I've experimented with some Facebook advertising. But so far I've, you know, my increase in audience has been incremental but it hasn't been exponential. You know, it hasn't gone completely crazy in any particular format. Some episodes have been popular, but again, I'm like everybody else out there trying to kind of crack that code into, say, being a podcast, like Scott's podcast, which is phenomenally popular now. He has a great topic and it's very wide reaching. But I don't, I think just about any topic, if you market it correctly and it's of any interest at all, you know, people will find you. It's just you gotta have to crack that code as to how you're gonna do that.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:22:37:

 

Yeah, like they always say, you want to be where the conversation is happening. And it looks like a lot of the things that you're doing for promotion are a good starting point. Out of all the things you just mentioned, which one of those probably had shown the most traction for you?

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:22:50:

 

Well, I would say. And again, I'm not really sure why, by the way, my. One of my dog is getting. Is getting a little obstreperous, which.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:22:58:

 

What's your dog's name?

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:22:59:

 

My dog's name is Finn McCool, and he's a border collie who reacts to just about any. I don't know if you're familiar with border collies, but they have the most incredible hearing. So if even is just walking by in our neighborhood, yeah, he'll patrol the whole house to make sure everything's okay. But the good news is, well, regular.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:23:17:

 

Listeners will know that you know this podcast about podcasting, so we don't try to pretend we work in pristine environments. So I actually look forward to interruptions because it's a reminder that this is real life for us. And I've had so many strange stories and great experiences of like, dogs jumping into laps during conversations and stuff like that. So we welcome the interruptions on this show.

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:23:39:

 

Well, it's certainly. If you're looking to humanize, you know, that's a good way to do it. You were talking about kind of the best processes. Frankly, anytime I've appeared on another show, I even appeared on a show that was strictly about Bruce Springsteen. And it was about a whole. I got to see at a very special Bruce Springsteen concert. And this is years ago. And that was the whole interview. And then at the end of it, you know, this podcaster said, okay, you know what about your podcast? And so I talked about that for five minutes. But anytime I appear on another show, I do see a bump in downloads. But again, you know, you hope to maintain certain levels and sometimes I'll see a big bump. Like when I was on Scott show I saw a big bump and then it sort of normalized a little bit. But as far as social media platforms too, the best one that I've accessed for me and again I think based on the topic has been LinkedIn far and away because I get response, you know, I get comments, I can see impressions, I can see engagement, et cetera. And I get way more on that particular website than any other. Now I have to say that I don't do TikTok, I don't do some of those sort of. I think not as because to me, I don't think that engagement is going to work for me. I think in the target audience because I know my target audience skews a little older and so Snapchat, et cetera. And again, the effort you have to put into for on all these, it's kind of mind boggling. And so I want to try to focus on the ones that work for me.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:25:00:

 

And it's audio only, right? You're not doing video?

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:25:02:

 

Well, no, I am on YouTube and that's kind of an interesting story because YouTube, you know, they changed their whole platform and they got rid of goog podcasts and they said if you want to be on moving forward, if you want to be on something that's affiliated with us, you got to go on YouTube music. And I didn't quite understand that they also were then going to post it on regular YouTube and all they do is they take my logo and for the entire episode they just have my logo and my audio underneath the logo. And I'm glad to be on that platform, you know, and I didn't have to do much to get on that platform. I am on just about every other platform that, you know, anyone's ever heard of. But when I say video, there is no video. You know, I don't have any kind. There's not me in the studio recording. It's a very. In that case, it's kind of an artificial video. It's really just a placeholder.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:25:53:

 

Yeah, there's a lot happening in that space. And I always keep referring back to folks that YouTube is the number two search engine, right. So it's helped from a discoverability perspective that people find it and naturally people are, you know, if they can sign up for YouTube Premium, they can listen and they can pause and stop and not have interruptions. And I think even with the video off or they can just listen to the audio of it, I think as well. So it's Helpful to be there. And also what's happening and something we're testing out for some of our clients is just the pace at which stuff is changing for AI is really crazy. And there's some tools now that used to just have, like, an animated waveform. You can display that on YouTube. But now, especially with content that's just as really content rich as yours, I imagine there's now tools available that will take the content and really tell a story through AI and show visuals like, you know, you're referencing, like, historical topics and stories. And I imagine they could actually probably paint a pretty nice AI picture that would be a bit more compelling if people wanted to have something visually to watch while they're listening.

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:26:56:

 

Yeah. And of course, it has all kinds of possibilities. And then for me, though, part of this is having worked in the documentary world, my reluctance there is kind of what images would you use in terms of who owns those images now? Maybe not understanding enough about AI. Maybe they can create those themselves, I don't know, artificially. So, you know, and that is something that, as you know, I mean, AI is exploding so much at this point that, I mean, I don't think anybody even knows what, you know, how it's going to be used in the future, what, you know, because there are no limitations. Understanding the people who are behind that, you know, they don't believe in limitations. So who knows where it's going? And I know it's obviously going to have an effect on. Because, again, the whole audio, you know, audio is a very. It's kind of very. I guess the word is linear. In other words, it's a very direct kind of medium, as opposed to something that incorporates both, you know, podcasting into your car. You're driving down the freeway usually, and you're hearing a voice, and that's it. That's the medium, you know, whereas there's so much potential, especially with the Internet, to make it much more kind of engaging to the listener. And if I knew how to do that, I would probably already do it. But for me, it's almost hard enough to crank out an episode every three weeks, which I think you understand. You know, while you're thinking about marketing this stuff, you're also having to keep coming up with new material, you know, and in my case, that is quite a challenge.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:28:22:

 

When you promote an episode you mentioned, you find the graphic specifically. Do you do anything else? Do you create, like, an audiogram or something? Like a more visually compelling clip on socials?

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:28:32:

 

You know, I have to almost embarrassingly say, no, and, you know, there's only so much time. There's only so. And I mean, there's real life going on too, you know, so it's something that. And the other thing too, my issue. And I know this will. It's not quite right. I mean, I know of it and I know about it, but I don't know how to do it, you know, and so to sit down and say, I know I have to do that. I'll do it next week. It's always, unfortunately, the trap, as you know, you fall into. And some people are very technical and for them it's. They can learn it in an hour. But some people aren't, you know, but I would say. And ears will perk up here. I mean, I'm more than willing to hear about that and hear how it can be done in a way that's feasible for me. And, you know, understanding that I'm almost working out of my garage, not literally, but, you know, I have a certain budget, but, you know, I'm open to ideas. So in any case, that's kind of the answer to your question.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:29:25:

 

No, that makes a lot of sense. There's a lot on your plate, obviously, when it comes to producing. But yeah, we can have a chat offline about some ideas because I think this is something we do for our clients all the time. And I started with audio. And so we focus on audio grams because there was no video to work with. But it's nice. I think what's interesting is like, you have to think about this ability of stopping folks in the feed, you know, when they're scrolling and you have to have something compelling to stop them. Because now it's just unfortunately the world that we live in. I've been more conscious of this. Like, even on LinkedIn, someone suggested to use like a 1080 by 1350 graphic in your LinkedIn and then to have a hook at the top. Because if you take the hook, then if you write enough text there and then you hit two space, two return spaces, the more will show up. So then people can see your hook line at the top and then they'll see your graphic. And if you look at that on a mobile phone, that takes up the entire screen of a mobile phone. So you're trying to like grab their attention in that moment to say, oh, this is something I should probably, like, learn more about. And you probably have seconds to get their attention. But just, we live in that environment where people are just like trying to determine really quick. Like, number one, is this an AI bot or Is this a real person? That's probably the first thing now with that announcement from Meta. They didn't make. That was pretty wild to hear that they're. I think they dialed that back this morning. They're like, maybe that's not a good idea to have like fake profiles of like AI bots. Like, so people are striving, you know, for this human to human connection. You know, I'm seeing like hashtag team Human now, which is pretty crazy, you know. So anything you can do to let people know, like there's a human on the other side of this, I think is helpful.

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:30:58:

 

Well, and I think in my case too, that it is not for everybody, but it is kind of a try it, you'll like it sort of your. If I am the podcast that a certain group would find to be interesting, if you do, at least if you give it a listen, you will be interested in it, you know, and so, you know, my goal then is not to create a podcast that's interesting. It's more how do I get people, as you know, to even take. Pay attention to this and even download it even once? I will. I don't know if you've heard this from other people. One of my challenges, and I find it in my own podcast because I listen to all kinds of different podcasts, but I find that even if I really like a podcast, I might only listen to it maybe, you know, there are some are not in this case, but I might only listen to it maybe six times. And then I won't say that I'm bored with it, but I'll probably cherry pick like the episode that are like, oh yeah, I really want to hear that. And then I'll go off to another one and then for a certain length of time, you know. And I do listen to a lot of podcasts, obviously, so the kind of ADD I think that I would call it in terms of podcast, even from my own experience, that's another real challenge because I know in my case too, it's not, you know, people will scroll through and they'll find topics and they'll say, oh, that sounds really cool. And they won't, you know, they'll only do that a half a dozen times.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:32:11:

 

Someone thinks that topic is cool.

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:32:13:

 

Yeah, I guess. Well, it's getting close to lost lunchtime. And this time he's more focused on something. Boy, I'll tell you.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:32:22:

 

Yeah, no, I hear what you're saying and it's definitely a challenge. So what is your call to action? Cuz I'm always Curious, because when people start shows and they do it for a wide variety of reasons, some because they just have something that's burning a hole in their soul that they need to get out and this voice that needs to get out for them, or they have this passion that they just want to tell the world about. Some, I mean, a lot of the folks that we work with do it from a business perspective. They're business owners, they're coaches, consultants. So they have subject matter expertise. So I'm always, you know, guiding students and clients to be clear, you know, you know, I always tell folks, what's the one thing you want a listener to do as a result of having listened to the episode? And so I'm curious for you, like, if you think about that and how you've thought about that for your audience.

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:33:03:

 

Well, I'm a little different because I'm not a marketing type of podcast. So it's not like, okay, buy my book or come to my seminar or do this or do, you know, nothing really specific. And I'm not selling something to people. And so. And by the way, a lot of people said, I find that really refreshing. On the other hand, the call to action initially was, hey, you know, like me and I, you know, write a review on itunes, like me on itunes. And then I kind of determined from a few sources that once you're up and running, that doesn't really matter. So the one call to action that I did hear from somebody else who was a very high profile podcast is recommend me to a friend. Now, I do also include all the books that I used in an episode, and that's kind of to engage, you know, the listener a little more. And then they'll go out and get the book that. But they'll also think about my podcast some more. So it's not like once they're done, you know, they've totally forgotten about the topic. So that's how I conclude every podcast. But as you know, a lot of people, once they hear the end of the podcast, they don't even listen to the conclusion. So, you know, it's kind of a different, like, I'm not even a political podcast where I don't say, so you need to go out and, you know, so it's, you know, in terms of a real call to action, kind of hard for me to. Other than, hey, like my podcast or tell somebody about it, you know, it's hard to incorporate anything else but that. And, and again, maybe you have some ideas.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:34:20:

 

Well, naturally, like when you start talking about this, the Idea started flowing because I had the privilege of working at E Trade for several years back in. During the E Trade baby days. And I was in the marketing department. I wasn't directly on the marketing team, but just to see the way their creative minds work. And if anyone's watched the E Trade baby, right, you know, it's like super thinking outside the box. So I love, like, you know, sometimes I'll have conversations and I'll get into marketing mode and I'm like, oh, that's interesting. So a couple of thoughts. Would you mind if I shared some thoughts I had about some marketing ideas?

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:34:49:

 

Please do.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:34:50:

 

You mentioned the books you covered. So do you have like a reference page for each episode and using an Amazon affiliate link where you literally list out like all the books that you covered and used for that episode?

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:35:01:

 

First of all, I do list all the books I covered. I used to have an Amazon link and even a program within that page that did have an Amazon link for a while. And then I think it was called Easy. You probably even, you know, know of all of them. And for at some point, either because I wasn't paying for it or it just basically the link no longer worked anymore. And so I kind of got away from it because I didn't really see much. That was an idea that I hadn't. That was one of my first ideas because, by the way, within the master's class I took, we had to take a marketing class. And the idea was, well, how are you, how are you going to make money with this thing? And that was one of the first things we came up with. And one of the reasons, you know, it's not like I've gotten really aggressive about fixing that is I literally did not see any response to that at all. I'm not really sure why. But you know, by the way, the other thing about a lot of these books is most people know that they're pretty readily available at a library. And I think people are interested in history. They probably are readers and they, you know, yeah, they probably buy stuff from Amazon, but their first option is, well, you know, let's see if it's in the library, at least. That's usually my perspective on that. But in any case, yeah, we did think about that.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:36:09:

 

Yeah, it might be something to revisit. And obviously with a back catalog as rich as you have, there's an opportunity to go back and maybe I know you can do it with a plugin because that's sort of like automates the process. But sometimes you have to do the Things that don't scale at first. I always use the example of the founders of Airbnb. When they first got started, they started seeing profiles that had nice pictures, would rent more. So they flew out to New York and started knocking on people's doors and saying, hey, you have a really nice listing, but your pictures aren't that good. Would you mind if we took some pictures of your apartment? And they started doing that, and they did that for hundreds, I think of they started going door to door across hundreds of apartment owners in New York City. And then that's an example of like things that don't scale in the beginning but have high value. So there might be an opportunity for you to kind of see if there's an opportunity to visit and increase the SEO, like, you know, availability of your website, you know, because if you have people coming and reviewing, because it seems like people who are interested in history are also interested in like the source material and how you put this together. So that's one idea. And then I was also thinking, do you have an email list right now?

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:37:12:

 

Embarrassingly, no. And here's my take on that. Because again, people say, how can you not have an email list? Well, my own experience was whenever somebody wanted my email, I would just literally back away and say, no, not giving it to you, not signing up, you know, and so initially my whole perspective on it was I want to make this as accessible to everybody. You know, I don't want them to back away from this. And of course, you know, you pay a price for that. And then by the way, if you do have an email list, then you gotta send people stuff with your email list. And again, being, you know, I'm a one man shop, you know, and so I know what those challenges are going to be. And a lot of, I think in my case it's more like, I know I should do it. I just, I'm not, you know, it's some. It's another task I don't want to get involved with. But the answer to your question is no. And that's obviously an opportunity that I'm, you know, I'm probably missing out on.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:38:05:

 

Yeah, I think I highly, highly recommend it, you know, for new podcasters. It's one of the first things we talk about setting up because it's a cliched reference, but it's the idea of building your house on rented land, which we're seeing. What's happening with TikTok, it may not even exist at some point or be drastically different. People that build their businesses on it are shaking in their boots. And then obviously like you're saying you're publishing on LinkedIn right now, but we never know when they're going to change the algorithm. I'm committed right now. You've probably seen that I'm posting daily on LinkedIn, which has been helpful for me for that consistency. But I'm also, I've tested out now for one of my marketing emails. I'm doing a daily email now because I want to be, you know, the way one of my coaches explains it is you want to be like recognized. People look forward to your email and consistent in their inbox. And so it's something to think about because and if you, as far as content and what to say, you have an episode coming out. Maybe not weekly, but at least what you could do is document your process and be like, hey, I'm halfway through the process. It was interesting, this little tidbit I found. And so like people are always looking for this behind the scenes content. But committing to a weekly podcast I think is really good. There's new services. ConvertKit, which is now Kit.com is a great thing. And I'm probably going to be moving over my email provider from Beehive to Kit this week because I'm seeing a lot of good features there. It's free to sign up, so you get for the first thousand emails, they don't even charge you. So again, we can have a chat about something like that. But you know, you have content, you have the episodes and you also have a back catalog. You know, even as something to start off with, you could start letting people know like, hey, in case we haven't spoken, you know what I've discovered with email? It's a real personable way. And I have a personal email too for myself on substack called A Life Worth Living. And I just share like what's happening. I fed the turkeys today. You know, I'm discovering something new about living in the Midwest or I just traveled here or I just, I got a flu bug for like the past year and a half and you'd be surprised how many people just can see. I think what we're moving to is this people really hungry for human to human connection and being able to discern like is this coming from an AI bot or is this someone that's just like, you know, randomly like spamming me with stuff. So there is something about building that audience. And then like I said, no one can ever take that away from you. Regardless what happens on social media with algorithms and Everything like that. Your email list is your direct one to one connection with people in your audience. And I'm pretty sure Phil, that there's like an audience of people who would like be interested in letting people number one from a, let people know what's happening and promoting the podcast episode. The email list is great because I subscribe to so many podcasts. Like even though I'm subscribed and even though I've hit follow and even though I follow their socials, I just miss it. There's just too much coming in and but occasionally like if I get notified and I've signed up for their email, like oh, they released an episode and I got the email. So I think it's. There's something to be said about developing that one to one communication with your audience.

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:40:56:

 

Well, it also, cuz I do a fair amount and I want to do even more traveling and a lot of them are history related. So I would think that it, if you got an email a few times about something where it's oh, clearly this is not just some rote thing. This actually is kind of interesting. Like I just hiked the Inca trail to Machu Picchu and you know, which a lot of people have, are fascinated by and I've always thought about it's kind of one of those bucket list things that you know, it's just taken off and a lot of people in the US are fascinated by it and so you know, to send out an email about that or even the process leading up to that or did I survive, you know, or something like that would have been I think a good opportunity. But you know, it's. Although it's something I could, I have all kinds of pictures and probably recreate in the future. So I hear what you're saying.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:41:43:

 

Oh yeah, that's a perfect example.

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:41:45:

 

Yeah. And I gotta do more, you know, and so that's probably one of the things, fundamental things I could be doing.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:41:51:

 

So this is a fun question I like to ask students and clients if we were having this conversation 12 months from now, it's January 8, 2026, what would need to have happened with your podcast for you to be satisfied with its progress?

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:42:06:

 

You know, for me it's an interesting and sort of difficult question because I love putting my podcast together. And so if nothing happened, you know, I'd be disappointed in terms of not being able to build back to an incremental increase or even a high profile increase because I love the process and I love doing the podcast. Even if they're virtually nobody was Listening to it. On the other hand, really, everyone says this, but I think I have interesting material. I have interesting, you know, back catalog, as you would say. And I think that for me, you know, you always believe you're on the cusp of some kind of a larger breakout, even if it's, you know, again, I don't aspire. I'm realistic, and I've lived long enough to understand that, you know, a lot of people are like, well, I want to be the next Joe Rogan. It's like, well, yeah, that'd be nice. You know, you have to be realistic, and what you're trying to do has to be something that's really attainable in a way. You know, it's sort of the norm in, say, somebody like Scott Johnson, you know, if you could ever put together something like that that actually even pays some bills. I have no idea what how Scott's doing on that financially. However, I do know that he is probably making a fairly substantial amount of money. To me, that's not really the goal in and of itself. It's something to aspire to because then, you know, you are one of the more prominent podcasts out there. So that's what I aspire to do. I hope to do that, but if I don't do that, you know, I don't think I'll ever be in a position where I would say, well, I'm not going to do this anymore because it's not worthwhile, you know, because I wouldn't have cranked out 150 episodes if I didn't love what I do. And I do like doing this. Clearly, I have thought about other topics, and yet my perspective on that is I've known other podcasters who've searched out other topics and they found they didn't even do as well with their second or third topic because they got so, you know, sort of stretched thin that they really. The whole thing fell apart after that. So that's kind of a long winded answer to your question and maybe not particularly focused, but I'm sure I'll still be here 12 months doing this, and hopefully I will have, you know, attempted some more intelligent marketing ideas, maybe with some help.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:44:10:

 

Yeah.

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:44:10:

 

But again, I'm really excited about it because I know that, you know, for me, this is something I really love doing.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:44:16:

 

Well, I think, Phil, it speaks to your interest in continuously looking for different ways to get the word out. And the fact that you reached out to me via your conversation with Scott says that you are interested in just like, where else can I speak and you have had experience being on those shows and seeing that's helped and so just kudos to you. Like, you know, sometimes you gotta, you know, look back and sometimes when we're looking back, we're so focused on like the future and like there's so many things that have happened that we can't celebrate the small wins. And I think it's important to look back and say yes. You know, if you look back, if you took the time and you look back at the 12 months, you know, there's a, probably a lot of milestones in terms of like, you know, increased downloads in certain episodes or just a conversation or an email. And so it's important to recognize the small ones as well and give yourself credit for getting yourself to this point, to this 150 episodes, that's a big win. And the fact that your answer was that you'd still be doing this a year from now regardless of what happened, that also speaks to your passion for this show. So those are all positives. So I want to congratulate you on that.

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:45:14:

 

Well, thanks. And you probably know way more as to what this really means. But like for instance, on the website Listen Notes lists me in the top 1% of all Apple, itunes, you know, podcasts. And I'm thinking, you know, that's again, is the glass half full or half empty. And I mean, if you told me that I was going, if that's where I would be, you know, in the great cosmos of podcasting, I'd say that is amazing. I can't even believe I couldn't even think about something like that. You know, you look at some of the others, there are the top 10th person. So you always aspire to try to do better. But to me that, you know, I'm happy to have achieved that. And I agree with you do have to pat yourself on the back and understand that this is all self motivated and if you can keep doing it, that's half the battle for sure.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:45:57:

 

So a couple of questions as we wrap up this conversation. Sure. First is, what is something you've changed your mind about recently?

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:46:03:

 

I don't know if I've been able to change my mind, but I think I've changed. I'm trying to desperately change my outlook about American politics. And I find it to have been so toxic even in my own personal relationships with people. And I'm not even going to get into specifics about my perspective versus other people's perspective because even that I think is volatile. But what I've tried To, you know, especially at a certain age, I'm trying to kind of. Even though I actually love politics, obviously with a background in history and I follow politics very closely, I've had to basically understand that a lot of people don't really. They have a very emotional connection to politics, but not frequently sort of the knowledge base, I guess, to really substantiate that emotion. And yet they do become very emotional. And if you try to, you know, have relationships with people especially, and I'm talking about even closer, you know, relatives of mine, that it's become almost impossible to have certain conversations about politics without people becoming extremely angry. So I'm trying to, when I say change my mind, it's more change my outlook on certain things and try to understand that. How that affects me on a daily basis and how I make my way through the world. You know, I want to kind of de. Emphasize that because I think it just. It brings out so much negativity. And I'm just trying to keep a positive outlook in a way that, you know, it's. Again, it gets back to that there's only so much I can change in the world. You know, you don't want to feel helpless or ignorant. And yet, on the other hand, you have to put things in perspective. And so that's kind of what I've tried to do, especially in the last few weeks and months.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:47:36:

 

That's probably a very smart approach. I think what we're moving towards is this idea of being able to disagree without being disagreeable and really just understanding that, like respecting people's opinions and understanding. Like, there's a lot of things where I'm in, you know, 80% aligned with people and there's 20% that I'm not. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna like, throw the baby out with the bathwater. And we see that in politics and all these other third rail topics now. So I think it's just. Everyone's just entitled to their opinion and let them have it and not judge them for it and not, you know, rake them over the coals for it as well. So I think, I hope we get to that point. You know, maybe Team Human can rally against the AI bots and that'll be our unifying call.

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:48:18:

 

Yeah, the astonishing thing, very quickly, because, you know, this is a fascinating topic, but I think you're right, Most people are 80% in agreement, and yet you have this incredible, you know, hostility that develops. I almost think you talk about AI, it's almost manipulated. That's what got me into this frame of mind was like, no, this was Never like this 20 or 30 years ago, you know. And again, I followed politics since I was fairly young for many different reasons. But, you know, this is a new phenomenon. This incredible anger and divisiveness is something that I just don't even, you know, I wonder. I know it's here, but I'm wondering, how did this evolve this way? You know. But anyway, a topic for another podcast for sure.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:48:58:

 

What is the most misunderstood thing about you?

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:49:01:

 

Oh boy. The most misunderstood thing. You know, I'd relate it to the podcast to the extent history. I mean, how could you. 150 episodes of history. I mean, that is just. How could you slog through something like that? And my answer is always the same. It's like, hey, you know, I find this stuff fascinating. You know, some people find microbiology to be amazing. You know, some people find auto mechanics to be amazing. But this is something that I find to be just really fascinating. And by the way, listen to my podcast and maybe you will too, you know, So I guess that's how I'd answer that question.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:49:34:

 

Well, thanks for that. Well, again, Phil, thanks so much for reaching out. I'm always excited to have a conversation with people who have, like, listened to the show, have an interest in this show. And then obviously over the years, I celebrated my 10 year anniversary last year. That's happening more and more. Scott actually came on because I spoke at Podcast Movement last year. I was on stage and he was in the audience and I was like, immediately saw his face and I'm like, scott, we've crossed paths like over the years at multiple conferences and we just never got to chat. So it's nice to have this format, to have these long, longer, drawn out conversations that, you know, if you and I met at a podcast conference, we'd probably get five minutes in the hallway and it just wouldn't be as deep as what we've been able to do here. So I appreciate you reaching out and continue to do that because, you know, you never know, you gotta. It's kind of that door to door salesman mentality. You just gotta keep knocking on the doors, be okay with rejection and just, you know, the people that do say yes, you know, will feel some alignment to your content. And slowly there, like we said, there is no silver bullet for growing a show. But it's just the little things that compound exponentially over time.

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:50:34:

 

Well, I appreciate that and I appreciate your time too. Cause I know there's some high profile people that you've interviewed And I'm just thrilled to be one of them.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:50:42:

 

Where's the best place for folks to learn more about your show and connect with you?

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:50:46:

 

So my website is some very famous people.com and I'd urge you to go to that website. And it's kind of a scrolling mechanism, but I'm sure you're going to scroll down and eventually you're going to get to a topic where you think, wow, that sounds really, really interesting. And you know, the people that I've profiled, we didn't really get into great specifics, which is fin because your listeners can investigate that on their own. And that actually might be kind of fun. But, you know, it rages from everybody from Friedrich Nietzsche to Edgar Allan Poe to Bob Marley to Ronnie Van Zand, of Leonard Skynyrd, Billie Holiday, all kinds of crazy true crime stuff, stories you've never heard, et cetera, et cetera. So some very famous people. Com. And again, I'm on under bite sized biographies. You can find me on just about any podcast directory.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:51:33:

 

And you've provided all those links for us as well, so we'll make sure I include those in the show notes now. Yeah. Closing thoughts.

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:51:38:

 

I was just going to say yes. And I should make sure that. I know I emailed. We had a little bit of a glitch the first time, but I think I did email all that information. So if you don't have it, by all means get ahold of me and I'll provide it for you.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:51:49:

 

Okay, Sounds good. Thanks again for your time, Phil. I really appreciate it.

 

 

 

Philip Gibbons 00:51:52:

 

Thank you. And have a wonderful new year.

 

 

 

Harry Duran 00:51:54:

 

You too.