334 Dave Jackson - Looking to the Past to Understand the Future of Podcasting

0:00:00 - Harry Duran

Dave Jackson back for round two. I can't believe it's only round two. I think you came on in 2015. I'm gonna have to look here, but you're definitely in a podcast junkies. Oh gee, it's been a while.

0:00:13 - Dave Jackson

But I think your show was somewhat new when.

0:00:16 - Harry Duran

I came on yeah, 2014. Yeah.

0:00:18 - Dave Jackson

Yeah, so it's been a little while. Things have changed a little bit since then.

0:00:22 - Harry Duran

Yeah, and the podcasting and anything interesting happening. Podcasting since 2015.

0:00:29 - Dave Jackson

Well, now we don't, you know, with AI, you know? Have you seen the Mike Russell video? He?

said thinking oh no, now I'm gonna have to give things for Harry for the show notes. Mike Russell from music radio creative has basically created an episode. He's shown how he 11 labbed himself and he goes into a feed, lee, and checks that this is a good article and it somehow sends it to, I think it goes to chat GPT, which summarizes it, throws it into a Google doc, which sends it to 11 labs, which sends it to SoundCloud, and so he doesn't do a thing, he just checks a couple stories and a podcast comes out on the other side.

0:01:13 - Harry Duran

This is an AI voice.

0:01:15 - Dave Jackson

It's his voice. Yeah, there's a website called 11 labs, okay, and it's like scary, spooky good, because I uploaded maybe three one minute clips of me and then used me at the beginning of one of my shows and I was like this is kind of scary when you do this and blah, blah, blah, and I'm like you know what else is scary? This isn't me, this is Robo Dave and my audience is like what, so that's new.

0:01:41 - Harry Duran

I know that the script because we use the script a lot is building it in as well and they don't even need that. They still need like a lot of coaching or do you record like a couple of minutes, but now I think they get the context from the conversation and then they can automatically just sub your stuff in your own voice.

0:01:58 - Dave Jackson

So the good news is we're going to get a lot not that Mike's is crappy not throwing shade on Mike here but I'm like we're going to get a lot of crappy articles and all this AI stuff, because for me, the part that pulls on your strings as a human is are the stories and as far as I know, ai has not had its heart broken yet so or just the stuff you go through when you're growing up. Your parents do their best and yet you still end up screwed up, and that's the way it is. So you do what you can.

0:02:31 - Harry Duran

I think there's no shortage of people talking about AI. I recently posted on something about how just annoyed I was. Like use AI to make things better. I used AI to fix whatever, and just went on a mini rant there on Facebook. But it's interesting to think about. The irony of that post is that I used AI to create the image Right.

0:02:50 - Dave Jackson

Well, I was laughing. I was at AppSumo yesterday just because I hadn't been there in a while, and I'm here to tell you every single thing because it's a website that has all these SaaS programs and everyone was like with AI. And I was like look, Frosted Flakes. Now with AI, I'm like just everything is AI and I was like really, so you recently completed past episode 900.

0:03:10 - Harry Duran

Is that right?

0:03:10 - Dave Jackson

900. Yeah, that was one of the things where when you just start, you start, and all of a sudden, if you haven't quit, you look up and then he said what are you going to do for episode 900? And I was like, because I've always thrown my format out the window. Probably the one that people know the most was episode 400. I, my show, was taken over by some morning radio guys called Binky and the Wiz. Yes, and they blocked me in a broom closet and this whole theater of the mind thing. Some of them have not been good. Episode 500 in particular is horrible.

So for episode 900, I was trying to upset both Christians and non-Christians and so I interviewed Jesus Christ from a marketing standpoint and it was Jesus talking about how it's a family business and he kind of took over for his dad and there was a rebrand and I was really surprised. I really thought somebody was going to get upset and instead I had a lot of people go. That was really creative and funny and I was like, but you're not upset and you're not, how dare you? So that was fun. So in the meantime it was also talking about podcasting. That's always the main thing I try to do. What, however creative I get, somebody's got to walk away with something that they can go try or learn or think or something like that. So yeah, episode 900 was interesting.

0:04:31 - Harry Duran

So that's your list of accomplishments, inducted into podcasting Hall of Fame as well. So I'm curious, and maybe you'll have a better opportunity to do this when you hit 1000. Have you paused for maybe a few minutes, maybe even a day, to kind of look back at your journey and thinking back? You know where you started. We talked about it, I'm sure, in the early episodes, but I'm now with those other years, I think I don't even think you're working on lips and back.

0:04:59 - Dave Jackson

No, no, the early days I was still teaching in the corporate world, I was playing in a band and when I started I just gone through both a bankruptcy and a divorce. So 2004 was a banner year. And so, 2005, I'm in a this weird basement room of my brother's house who said you're going to come live with me? And I'm like, no, I'm just going to go get an apartment. He's like you got a lot of legal bills coming, come live with me. And so I'm in his basement and I just seen so many things kind of come and go and I like my space. I totally missed the MySpace boat.

And so this thing came along like a membership sites are going to be cool. And then a friend of mine was always going to these marketing conferences and said, hey, I've seen the next big thing. And I go what is it? He goes it's podcasting. And I Googled it. I Googled the phrase podcasting, there were one and a half pages. And I go wait, how do you spell this? It's like all right, I'm like I think we broke the internet. I go there's nothing on it. So yeah, so that's when I was like, well, membership sites and podcasting are gonna be the peanut butter and chocolate. Let's see if we can put those together and come up with a Reesy cup.

And it was the first three years especially. We're just brutal because nobody knew what it was Like 29 pod for that, so. But it is. When I look back, it just things like there's a piece of equipment called the Zoom Pod Track P4 that I think is under 200 bucks, it's like 180. And five years ago that would have been $1,000. I've got a oh, I forget the name of the, it's some interface and I paid 800 bucks for it. It's just looks like a about the size of an eight track tape and it's got these super preamps and all this other stuff. And then, like three years later, they're like oh, here's this thing from Zoom. Now, granted, it's plastic and I wouldn't want to drop it. But and the fact that we used to have all these mixers and so you had to learn mix minus and that was always a pain in the butt to explain to somebody who's never been in audio Lots of diagrams with arrows and things like that. So it's been a lot easier.

0:07:00 - Harry Duran

How do you think about the role or being a spokesperson that you're playing now in the industry and naturally I would imagine that comes naturally for you being a teacher or being an instructor? But have you thought about that as well, how people have followed your journey and also thinking about? I don't know if you've kept track of the people that you've impacted or helped along?

0:07:20 - Dave Jackson

the way, I have old email lists that occasionally I'll go through the name. I'm like, oh, I remember that guy. Or I remember I had a guy come through because my first podcast wasn't about podcasting, was for musicians. And this guy said, hey, you always say if you come through record Ohio, you'll buy me a pizza. And I'm like, oh, absolutely. And so we're at the pizza place and he goes. Do you remember how I used to sign off and I go I don't remember what I had for breakfast, but, alone, what I said 19 years ago. And he goes used to say for those who have money there is therapy and for the rest of us there is music. And I go. I said that and he's like, yeah, he goes, that's not bad, he goes. I now teach music at a university and he goes and I start up every semester with that and I was like, well, look at that. I'm like that's cool.

So weird things. You don't know how you're affecting people that you go through, and so that's always kind of tricky. And it's always fun when you meet someone who listens to all of your episodes, because they kind of know you, or at least feel like they do, and you have no idea who this person is. And I just went through this. I was in Houston, texas, and I've known Adam Curry. We always kind of bump into each other over the years but I've never met his wife and I listened to his show, curry and the Keeper, and it's cute and it's fun. It's just basically a little audio diary that they do. And all of a sudden I'm standing next to this one woman and the voice of Tina Curry comes out of her head and Adam walks over and goes have you met Tina yet? And I was like yeah, and I go. I got to say this because it doesn't happen much. I go, what? I go? The voice of Tina Curry is coming out of your head. I go it's so cool, I haven't seen this in so long. So that's always kind of fun. And the other thing that's weird about when it dawns on you that people are listening to you, because we've all convinced ourselves, thanks to imposter syndrome, that nobody's going to listen to us.

But I was working with a client once and I said OK, so what's the idea? We're working on Great, do you have any equipment? And he rattles off all this stuff and he said, oh, I've got the Zoom Podtrak P4. That's the thing I just mentioned. And I bought a roadcaster. And I go wait, you bought both. I go you kind of need one or the other. I go, why did you buy the roadcaster? And he goes, oh, you said it was cool. And I was like, yeah, it's like $600, though, and he's like, well, I don't know. I just thought, ok, so that's when I've especially when I talk about gear, I'm really careful to go look, if you have this product or this product, you don't need to upgrade. This is cool and all. But yeah, so that's when I kind of went oh, wait a minute, this microphone's loaded.

0:09:49 - Harry Duran

Yeah, exactly. So what's the show count at? I know it varies over the years, but it shows in production or maybe if the total amount is even.

0:10:00 - Dave Jackson

It's funny, you ask. I just updated a spreadsheet the other day because I knew somebody was going to ask me this occasionally. I know I've done like 31 different shows. I'm at 4,790 episodes over 39 shows apparently. Now some of those are the same where I've rebranded, but somewhere around 35. Yeah, so it's one of those things where the kind of joke is Dave enjoys this and that and when he's not podcasting, oh who are we kidding? Dave is always podcasting and some of those were really great mistakes, like I did one show called the Customer Service Show. I'm always the king of the really obvious name and that was one of the things I did.

Before I was a teacher, I was a customer service rep and I thought, oh, this will be great and you have delusions of grandeur. I'm going to launch this podcast. I'm going to be seen as like this expert customer service guy and people are going to hire me. And I did about six episodes and I just sounded like a grumpy old guy. I'm like. I went into McDonald's today. They didn't even say hello, man, man. And all of a sudden it was like who's going to listen to this? And B? It's what I do, it's not who I am.

While I have that experience, I try to show what's called new to cooking, because I am new to cooking and I think that made it 18 episodes before I went. You know what Restaurants are good. I'm fine with that, so you kind of learn from every single one. It's kind of one of my bumper stickers. You'll either end up with a great podcast or a great story about the time you started a podcast. So I'm better now, because there are times when I'm like, oh, we should start a podcast about this and I'm like, hey, let's not. I've got, I think, five or six going now. They're all about podcasting in one form or another, with a co-host or not, or short or long, and tall and fat and all sorts of different versions of more or less the same thing. And I now go, yeah, let's not start another podcast.

0:11:56 - Harry Duran

I think once you have the first one or two solidly under your belt, you start to realize I like to refer to it as your virtual stage and this ability to have not only to speak from and teach from, but also just to have people on that you want to have conversations with and I just that wasn't couldn't be more clear for me than what I did with my second show, vertical Farming Podcast, which is just blown up. I've been flown to Dubai and to Germany this year for indoor farming conferences. On their dime it's generated over 80 K-heats, sponsorship dollars and interview CEOs and founders of these companies. And I went three years ago at zero literally zero visibility in this industry, and so just that focused effort on using these skills that I had long form interviews, know how to produce a podcast and putting them together and really just how powerful that can be.

0:12:43 - Dave Jackson

Yeah, I mean that story. The Vertical Farming Podcast is a great story. It's made it into a few of my presentations. So I'm like, well, you can start off with the sponsor. It's not normal, but Harry did it and you bring up a great point. I just talked to someone who had podcasted for five years and she wrote this great blog post kind of saying how after five years I didn't really have anything to show for it. And it's easy to fall into that mindset because we come up with expectations and never made it on Jimmy Fallon, all these other things. And she said but on the other hand, I sat back and looked. I'm like, wait a minute, I know how to build a website, I'm pretty good at copywriting, I'm great at graphics and forming a somewhat thought out sentence and this and that. So it was a really neat kind of blog post, because she was like you know, it felt like a failure but in the end I'd gained all these extra skills that I just kind of overlooked. But it was now part of who I am.

0:13:36 - Harry Duran

Do you have time to think about your impact? Just separate yourself from the fact that you're podcasting and you have all these shows and think about what podcasting has done, or maybe just impact on you. Like what has it done for you overall? You know just kind of like 30,000 foot view, because sometimes when I'm in it it's hard to realize like I wouldn't be here, I wouldn't be having this conversation with you, I wouldn't have a business, Like I really should have thinking about all things I would not have had on. That started. You know that first show in 2014.

0:14:04 - Dave Jackson

Yeah, it's really weird. Somebody said what would you be doing if you weren't podcasting? And I go, I honestly don't know, probably still doing stuff with music. But the thing that solidified it, when I was again back in my brother's basement I've done a podcast for two weeks I got a voicemail from Michael Van Laar from Nuremberg, germany, and I'm in the middle of nowhere, ohio, it's me and the cows and some guy in Germany found my show. And that's when I was like, oh, this is cool. I don't know what it is yet, but this is really really cool. So I just wondered, like if that hadn't happened and I'd kind of followed the path of any podcasters.

You put it out, nobody's listening and you're like, eh, but I, it scratches every itch I have. Back then especially, you kind of had to be a little bit of a nerd. It's super creative, like there are no rules, you can do whatever you want. And then the fact that I get to help people, it just scratched every itch I have. And John Buchanis right, probably. Yeah, and John one day looked at me. He goes you know what's so funny? And I go. What he goes? You don't know, you're Dave Jackson, I go. I have no idea what that means. He goes dude, he goes. You're like you've been doing this forever Because everybody knows you. You go, no, trust me. No. But it's one of those things that I have people on occasion that try to like I'm like I don't know, it's just me in a spare bedroom talking to a microphone. Then I see the numbers and I'm like, wow, people are listening to this. But I'm just having fun and I enjoy helping people. I just had somebody contact me today and they're like wait, so if I do this and this, how much is it? And they're like it's not more. And I'm like no, and they're like okay, and I mean I just like to help people. I know I should charge more, but I'm like I just like to help people. So that is something that's always kind of interesting.

And you mentioned like getting flown to Dubai when you started that podcast. You're like I bet in three years I'm gonna be, I'm gonna end up in Germany. So you just kind of go where it flows. And it is. I think for me it helped make an audio resume and building the relationships.

Like I don't think I'd be at Lipson if I didn't have a podcast, but because of the podcast I got invited to go to a podcast event in Pittsburgh and that's where I got to meet the people from Lipson and at the time I was still teaching and I just said, are you guys ever hiring anybody? And I had no thoughts of ever leaving. But fast forward a year and a half later and my teaching job dries up and I was like, oh, I know some people wouldn't mind working for so that kind of stuff. I got hired at a college once because they asked me in the job interview. They're like what do you do for fun? And I go, I play the guitar and I do podcast. And they're like oh, you do podcasting. So it's kind of weird. You don't know how it affects people or where you'd be without it.

0:16:46 - Harry Duran

It also got us to Australia as well.

0:16:48 - Dave Jackson

Yes, exactly, yeah, and again, that to me is still one of the best. Just, I don't know what it's an event, but it was just the funnest week ever Going to the. I went to the zoo and got to hold a koala and got to know Jordan and you, nat, and everybody. Pat Flynn is hilarious.

0:17:09 - Harry Duran

Travis Chappell is there as well.

0:17:11 - Dave Jackson

Travis is there, but Pat Flynn is hilarious. I told him. I said dude, I know you're kind of a family friendly kind of podcast guy I go, but you got to let your humor out because that guy is hilarious.

0:17:22 - Harry Duran

It was an interesting sneak peek and just like the behind the scenes. It's sort of like almost why I started the show, because I remember the show called Inside the Actor Studio and you'd finally get to see the actor. Like you know, just relax for a bit and shout out to Ramonzee for creating that experience. We had a it was just really intimate conference itself. I think maybe about a hundred people or 150 people attending, and then he had two days with us just to kind of get together and get to know each other as speakers, which was it's rare that you see organizers take that much time to do something like that. And I remember going to the fridge I don't think it was grabbing a beer or soda or something like that I just had to like think about, like wait, who's in this living room right now? It's like people that when I got started podcasting I was like admiring and looking up to. You know, pat Jordan you mentioned yourself and Travis was just beginning to blow up as well and Omar was in office there.

0:18:10 - Dave Jackson

Yeah.

0:18:10 - Harry Duran

Yeah, and so it was amazing to think about, had it not been for the show like to create those opportunities, and I think that's what a lot of people. They can't see that far ahead and they think about the moment where they're just like, well, how am I going to do this? And it's frustrating and I don't know why I got to be showing up weekend and week out.

0:18:27 - Dave Jackson

Yeah, and you just never know. And so I try not to say no, especially if something new. It was something. I remember I was at a kitchen table once and I was all of like 23. So I'm feeling very grown up and I looked at my mom and I go like, what was your philosophy of growing up? I said, because I remember she'd let me ride in the trunk. She would. I remember when I was wee little I would ride under the cart and I'm like why? And she just said, well, if it wasn't going to kill you, I figured what's the harm? Yeah, and so I've always kind of taken that and I've noticed that the way podcasting leads to relationships with your audience, the audience then leads to opportunities which lead to more relationships, which lead to more opportunities, and it just kind of snowballs along, and so it's interesting. When I go to these different events, it's like going to summer camp. When I see you and all these people, it's big hugs all around and you just kind of pick up right where you left off.

0:19:24 - Harry Duran

Do you think about the impact you've had personally on people A lot of times when you get into these shows and get to see some of these conversations. I imagine, with thousands of episodes you've recorded, that some of the stuff probably gets personal or some gets into topics that maybe, as a host, you weren't thinking it was going to happen when you turned on, when you hit record. But sometimes those moments happen and it's an interesting skill because that's one more skill to learn right, because you can interview someone and ask the right questions and get through an interview, but to hold space for someone when they realize they've been given a safe opportunity to share something vulnerable with you, and they do that and you have to have some finesse in how you handle those.

0:20:02 - Dave Jackson

Yeah, I think I'm a better communicator. I hope so. Got to have some thousands of episodes later and I think everybody that does a podcast eventually becomes more skilled at improv, like if somebody throws something at you. I remember this is a phrase that not many people get to say when I was going to my ex-wife's wedding. So she was getting remarried and something had happened where the person that had married her and a new husband was not coming to the reception. And so everybody's like where's father, so-and-so or whatever it was. They're like oh, he's not coming. And so he just looks at me and she goes hey, jackson, you are almost a pastor, get up there and do a prayer, would you? And I was like all right, I guess I'll just do some freestyle. We got you know like, here we go. And I pulled it off. It was no big deal, and so I've run into that a lot.

Or last week I do a live show with Jim Cullison where we just kind of take questions from a chat room and he let me know before we even started. He's like hey, I have to leave like 20 minutes early. And I'm like fine, that's no big deal. I said I'll just do the last 20 minutes of me in the chat room and that was one that all of a sudden you're like, oh, this is awkward, talking to no one. And then the thing I've noticed about if you listen to guys on the radio, they're really into the dramatic pause as they figure out what the heck they're saying. And I was horrible at this. I sounded like that old commercial or the guy that just keeps talking and never shuts up and he just hears another word and keeps going and and I was like I was so weird.

So you get yourself into these positions that give you new skills and I definitely, when I was growing up I was pitifully shy. I got fired from my first job when I was eight to 16 because I wouldn't talk to customers. I was just, I mean, introvert was an understatement where now I still tell myself I'm an introvert. But I had a teacher of mine that basically said fake it till you make it. He was like act the way you want to be and someday you will be the way you act. So I sure smell and act like I'm outgoing. I still tell myself I'm introverted and it comes out occasionally. But that is something I think again just from being in these different positions where you're like oh, here, you're going to be in a house with a bunch of people in Australia, so don't hide in the corner. It comes out occasionally.

I remember when I was married I went to the dreaded Christmas party there's nothing worse than going to the the partners Christmas party and that she was a nurse. So they're all talking health ease and doctor ease and I have no idea. And she just looked at me. She goes oh, no, no, no, don't do it. And I go don't be shy Dave. Don't be shy Dave. I don't like shy Dave. So, and then finally somebody walked up and said hey, are you the podcast guy? And she just rolled her eyes and goes I'll see you in 20 minutes.

0:22:49 - Harry Duran

Is that something you think just comes from the reps? Or is that something that people can be taught? Because that's being introverted and being scared to talk on stage, talk in public? That's a legit fear. Up there with spiders and roaches and heights and tight spaces, like speaking in public is paralyzing for some people. I remember even in Australia I gave a talk and by the end I felt like my mouth was stuffed with cotton. I was just like why is my mouth so dry? And because it's not something if you don't do regularly, it's not natural.

0:23:20 - Dave Jackson

Yeah, it's funny because I mean, I've been teaching for 20 years and now podcasting for 18. And if I go on stage five minutes beforehand, my hands turned wider than they normally are and they sweat and I'm like, oh, it must be. And I look at my watch Yep, five minutes to stage time, here we go. So I think we get better at it, it's just a matter. I just think it's a long process till you really feel natural. And I think for me, one of the things when I grew up, I had an older brother and sister, but they had friends and they would scatter and it was just me, and so there are times when I had to really just I was going to say play with myself, but that doesn't sound right, but I had to entertain myself, shall we say. And I still think that has something to do, because to me I'm like, well, just do a solo show. And I have my one co-host is like I can't do solo. He's like I need a co-host and I'm like, really, just talk to your invisible friend across the desk, and he's like I'm not comfortable doing. And to me I'm like, no, just it's that person right there, Just go ahead and talk. So I don't know if that's me, I kind of think, because I run into people like I don't know how you do solo shows and I'm like you just do it, and so maybe that was just something I kind of threw entertaining myself growing up, and I still consider myself somewhat weird.

I remember when I was growing up this is back when there was one phone on the wall with a really long cable that was all stuck to each other and I'd be like talking to my cousin. I'm all of like seven, seven or eight. We had these Coke glasses that you would get from McDonald's and we had a whole set right. Oh yeah, I would start filling these up with water and tuning them as I'm talking on the phone Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. And I remember the one time my mom just looked at me Can you not just talk on the phone? Because I was always banging on stuff, and so I think that's part of it too, is I'm just always a little. I mean now they would definitely diagnose me as ADD or something of that nature, and we're back. Then it was just oh, he's creative or hyper.

0:25:19 - Harry Duran

So when did the musical journey start for you?

0:25:22 - Dave Jackson

I was five and I had one of those plastic guitars and I was left handed and so I was trying to play. I have a tape of me somewhere banging away on this thing. But around six it had come to my attention that everything I wanted to do left handed was now a pain in the butt. Right. There were no scissors, I couldn't get a baseball mitt, and I just remember I was in first grade. I'm like, yeah, I'm done with this.

0:25:49 - Harry Duran

Like I'm just gonna be right.

0:25:50 - Dave Jackson

Yeah, like I'm done with lefty. See, it was nice. And so my brother had tried. At one point he strung a guitar upside down, because every time you opened up a right handed book, like it was backwards, and so it was like trying to learn how to play the guitar in a mirror. And I was just like, yeah, I'm done with that too, and I'm just gonna play right handed, which is really cool, because when you're a guitar player, the hand that's really doing a lot of the work is your left one. And so I sat around, probably when I was around, so when I was five, my fingers were too small. That was the other problem. And so he was seven years older than I am, so when he was got a job, so he would have been 16, I would have been nine, that's about right. And he be like I'm going to work, don't touch my guitar. So I mean sorry.

And so I started playing and found that old right handed book and I'm playing, you know, jimmy, crack corn, and I don't care, and She'll be coming around the mountain and all this other he's over there playing a cdc. And so the one day he was like all right, if you're gonna play the guitar and what are you doing? And there are these things called bar chords where you can play chords up and down the neck, and he showed me those and it was like a giant light switch just all the sudden went and it kind of. He was kind of pissed for a little bit because he watched me zoom by and he's like I don't like. And what was interesting about it is I had a paper out at the time and I bought this guitar that looked like the guy from a cdc and then later I actually bought the guitar, like the exact guitar he had, and that got me over the mental help because I was like, ok, I want to play a cdc. Those notes are somewhere on this neck. I just got to find them and so I got really good, I just did it last night.

It's something I would just I'll hit Spotify and hit a random playlist and just play along. I know how to read music, but I also know how to run a mile, and neither one I do very well, so, but I can play by ear really well and so just one of those things I don't know why it just again it scratched every itch I had. So I would deliver my papers. I would come home, I would play the guitar. My mom would kick the bedroom wall and like, hey, I'm for dinner. I would come out, I would eat, I would go back downstairs and play for Five to six hours along with the radio or whatever again. Back then music was not this running endless stream of water. So it's like, oh, my brother bought an album from something called Fleetwood Mac, let's see what this is. And you'd start playing along. So yeah.

And then over the years I was in a bunch of really bad metal bands because I was really into Ozzie and Iron Maiden and that led to a country band which I still swear was like one of the signs of Armageddon. Like there are a bunch of guys I worked with like, hey, you want to join our country band? And I grew up, my dad on Saturdays would come in at six in the morning, hit the window shades so go flapping up on the roll and open up the curtains. My brother and I are like vampires, like the sunlight. He's like I have the suns up, why aren't you? And he'd go down the hall and turn on WSLR. And it was J bird. And what my truck is that whole nine yards.

So when I heard country, I'm like I'm not playing in a country band. And then they played it for my go. This is not country, this is boogie with a twang, it's rock with a fiddle. And so I was in a country band for a while. It was really successful. We played all over the place.

And then I thought, well, before I hang it up, I want to play in a blues band because I was a really big Steve Ray Vaughan fan and so I did that for like eight or nine years. Technically we never broke up. Just the keyboard player had twins, the singer had a really bad online poker addiction and we just kind of quit playing and nobody cared. But yeah, so I've been playing. And now it's weird if you had this yet, harry, where you realize you're the adult in the picture, like when somebody kid knocks on your door, goes hey, mister, can I mow your lawn? Well, now, a couple years ago I tried to get back in a band and I'm calling on these things and it's like guitar player needed for blues rock band and Michael, this is perfect. And they're like looking for somebody like ages 25 to 30 and I'm like 15. And I remember when grandpa used to call on my ad and like why is that old dude calling on my ad? And I was like, oh wow, I'm the old dude now, so that's always fun.

0:30:05 - Harry Duran

So maybe you can start a new band, and just for an age we call it age appropriate.

0:30:12 - Dave Jackson

I have it set up. The band name was electric groove crusade. I got a playlist. I just couldn't find anybody to come do it with me. And bands are tough. It's like a four way marriage Got a lot of ego going in there and then you've got the families of the people that are in the band, so they've got to kind of make it's when you get in a good band. That's why you kind of don't want to mess it up, because it's a magical thing when it happens, but it's a ton of work.

0:30:35 - Harry Duran

Speaking of the younger kids and bands, I found I stumbled on to one of those scrolling trips on Instagram and I found this kid. His name is Harrison, underscore piano. He's like 16 years old and incredible, incredible. One of those like Bach or Beethoven's Bach or Beethoven like transported from another dimension, like clearly reborn, was a master in a previous life. But there's videos of him like I think it's six and he's just like Crushing it can't like on the piano and just moving his fingers so fast. He's playing like Billy Joel, he's playing like Crazy songs. And then I keep scrolling and I see him playing the drums and I was like wait, you play the drums to incredibly sick. And now it just lend me to.

This group called Echo is a bunch of like 16 and 20 year olds in Liverpool of all things. Interestingly enough and I marked it as like that's going to be the next super great band because just the energy was so exciting and you can just picture it's almost like that Ramon's vibe. I'm sure the people in first seat a band like that they're just like whoa. What are those guys doing? What is that?

0:31:31 - Dave Jackson

Yeah, I used to cheat most people don't know this. You may have know about 78 records. They were made out of a really brittle like. You could smack them if you watch it's a wonderful life when she breaks. That was a 70, but somewhere I've never seen one. There was a, an LP that when it's 16 revolutions per minute, so it was 1633 and a third 45 and 78. I had an old turntable with a 16 speed so I could put Van Halen on and listen to eruption and it was exactly an octave lower Lower, and so it'd be like and so I would tune my guitar an octave lower. The strings are falling off the neck and I would learn it. It's also twice as slow, so you could learn it then. And then it was just a matter of OK, let's tune everything back up. Now that I know what the notes are, I just have to play them really, really fast. Where today, these kids and today you just go to YouTube and go show me how to play eruption. They're like here, you're like that's no fun.

0:32:31 - Harry Duran

You can do point five, x, now Same thing, right, yeah, and so you can think about the impact of just learning that and, what's interesting, what you remember. You said you pick up the guitar and you said the notes are there, I just have to discover them. Yeah, just immediately think of like Michelangelo when he sees the block of Grandet and he's like Dave is in there, I just got to get him out of there, right, and so fascinating, that same perspective.

0:32:58 - Dave Jackson

Yeah, it was just something where and the other thing, I guess, to think about it there wasn't as much stuff to distract me. There was no Netflix. There was radio, which back then was great. I mean, in Cleveland we had WMS which broke, bruce Springsteen and Rush and Denny Sanders and Kid Leo and all that big FM stuff. But there wasn't as much stuff to do and so I was like I just love to play the guitar and it was just one of those things where I remember these things called Fake harmonics, I called them squeaks.

If you listen to ZZ Top you'll hear a lot of squeaking or black label society. And I remember when I figured out by accident how to make a squeak and it's basically just this weird almost playing with the side of your thumb, and then, like I couldn't make it happen, like it happened by accident, I just remember for an hour just getting the same note and when I finally figured out what was going on, now I could squeak all day long. But it's those kind of it's almost like a video game. Right, you get past level two and you're like, oh no, but I got to go through the door and kill the dragon before the water, and so you find something else. And then I'm fairly logical, so really in the math. And so it just dawned on me that once I learned one little pattern, if I just learned it an octave lower and an octave lower Now, I just had a roadmap of like. If I'm in the key of E, these frets work and it was just a matter of like. Now, ok, it's like the sidewalk, don't step on a crack. Ok, I know where I can walk and we're not the walk, and I can do whatever I want, as long as I don't go outside of these little patterns.

So people like well, what mode are you playing in? I got no idea. I just know it's a minor song, so I can add this to the sidewalk and this sounds cool, and this and that, and that's where, for me, just music is fun, because you start off with Jimmy Crack corn and you graduate to Chuck Berry, and Chuck Berry leads to Ace Freely, which leads to Angus Young, which leads to Eddie Van Halen and Randy Rhodes, and eventually you migrate to Ingve Malmsteen, and that's when I got into the country band. It was like learning French. It's the same language, right as the same alphabet, it's just completely different.

And there are some amazing guitar players in country. So that was a lot of fun and that's what I loved about it, because like, oh, you guys are doing the Jimmy Page thing but you're stretching the G string up to here and blah, blah, blah, and so I was like this is another way of expressing yourself and I still have like almost zero jazz chops. If somebody said, what would you do if you had more time, I'm like I'd go learn some jazz, because that's it always sounds cool.

0:35:26 - Harry Duran

What's the left on your creative endeavors?

0:35:28 - Dave Jackson

bucket list it's funny I just said this yesterday One of the things I added to my bucket list and it's are you watching? Welcome to Wrexham. It's the who's the really sarcastic superhero. Oh yeah. Ryan Reynolds and the guy from it's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, which is funny because everybody refers to him as the other guy. But they bought this really crappy football team and they're trying to.

I want to somehow attend a football for our American friend soccer. I want to attend a soccer game, not to get this, not beat out of being by hooligans, but I mean these people sing in the stands like all. You have 30,000 people all singing along Wrexham, wrexham, and everybody knows it, like the six year old kids or they all know the song and I was like that looks like it's the community aspect of it. But I was like someday I want to go to a football game in the UK and watch everybody sing along and they absolutely go bonkers. I mean we have football and the Super Bowl. I mean these people when they score a goal, it looks like they cheer for hours.

0:36:31 - Harry Duran

Because it happens so infrequently.

0:36:34 - Dave Jackson

They're just like, okay. And if you think they'd be like, okay, let's go back to the game, they're like, no, no, we're going to celebrate more. But creativity the other thing I need to get into we started off talking about and I reminds me of email. I remember because back in the day I was teaching people how to surf the internet, which was fun, because at the end you're like you do this big disclaimer and I said, okay, go ahead and surf the internet. And we're in Ohio. So this guy's looking for a television set. And he typed in Kansan TVs and got a website for transvestites and I'm going, okay, remember the back button, if you could click the back button. So, but I remember teaching email and you're like, okay, and click send to the buddy next to you. And this guy's going like, dude, it's already there. Like I, just it's already there. Like how did it do that? And so I showed chat GPT to my brother and he's like what is this voodoo that you are playing with? And it's just something that I know. There's something there, I think.

For me, I see it more as an assistant, not so much like something that's gonna run away and, like I always wanted, I want to brainstorm with AI.

I don't so much want it to do my own job, because you know I like to work and so but I also, when I first saw it, I was kind of like, ooh, I don't know if I like this because this could displace people, but I'm the geek in me goes, yeah, don't run away. This could be the next email and I don't want to be the guy that's like well, dave's old, so he doesn't understand the technology, so I want to somehow keep up with it and just have that my back pocket Like, oh well, like right now, I did something where I found this cool article and I wanted to use in my podcast. But it was like, is that plagiarism on me? Hold on here, chat GBT, summarize this for me and rewite it. And I was like, oh, there we go. It's still accurate, not this person's word, perfect. So I think that's the other thing I need to kind of again, not let it pass me by.

0:38:24 - Harry Duran

I think it's one of those things that think about Luddites and people who just are versed to technology If that is the word. I always get the word confused for some reason. But I think as you get older you realize you can't keep up with everything and there will be a point where you're just like, okay, that's not enough, I can't maintain this pace. But I think for our generation I turned 53 a couple of weeks ago and I grew up, thankfully, in like early 80s with the tech and then, you know, some people were late bloomers and to see it from that, those early days, it almost feels like it's always gonna be a part of me. It doesn't feel like probably like one generation ahead of me. They're just like they weren't introduced into it in their formative years, so it's really not something they built a relationship with.

But I have this love of tech, for better or for worse and for all the good things that it's done. And then I think when you look at something like AI and you think of the ability to help, if it gets us to a point where we can relax and enjoy life more because we're having the robots do the stuff that's just repetitive, that there's no added value. To summarize an article Great, you can do that. I know that's a skill set people learn, but I think maybe you can go learn the guitar instead, and so maybe what we'll see is influx of just more creative creations. That where people are literally taking the time to like carve and woodwork and make music and draw and paint in a way that's like using more analog tools, and hopefully I think that's one of the benefits of this is what I see as well.

0:39:49 - Dave Jackson

Yeah, I have. One of my clients is in her seventies and when I grew up, I want to be Zeta Christian cause. She's not afraid of anything. She's like oh, it'll take me a little longer, but I'll get it. And I remember once when I lived in an apartment my license plate is podcast. So I'm walking along and this older gentleman comes up and goes, hey, are you the podcast guy? And I'm like, yeah, I'm the podcast guy. He goes do you know anything about WordPress? And I go, oh, I work in WordPress every day. And he's like, could you help me launch a site? And I go, yeah, he's like 84 years old.

He's like I want to build a store and sell this stuff, and I was like I want to be that guy when I'm 84. I don't know what it is, but I'll find somebody to teach me. So that's the plan at least.

0:40:32 - Harry Duran

Where do you think we're headed with all the information that's coming out? The state of the world today? We're in October 2023. There's some crazy stuff happening all over the world's globe and then it's really putting people on edge and people are turning to podcasts now to like get some information and figure out, at least listening to long form conversations. I am a fan, actually, of Joe Rogan and long form conversations. There's something powerful about having a three hour conversation with someone and just hearing alternative voices, especially when you start to see these traditional channels and all you hear is like a five minute snippet. So do you ever think about podcast ability maybe not your role, but just podcast ability to start opening up these other channels for discourse and for communication, cause it feels like we're going to need more of that.

0:41:12 - Dave Jackson

Yeah, when I first started, I said, well, I think podcasting is going to change the world and marketers are going to see it as a great way to sell, teachers see it as a great way to learn. So I was like we could really learn about cultures that I've nowhere near in this and that. And so, yeah, I do get worried because I know right now, net neutrality is sneaking back on the stage and if you, based on the stuff I've heard on a podcast, it just sounds like the government is sneakily trying to regulate the internet and I'm like that's not good and so maybe I'm weird. I think, deep down, people are good, like I. By default, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, so I'm a big fan of like people like Joe Rogan. Let me present both sides and then you decide. And if you're in the majority, you are. If you're not, but at least now. And so I get worried when I hear people you're not allowed to say this, you're not allowed to say that.

And I had a thing. There was kind of a Bruja hot podcast movement and I came out and I said, hey, I grew up in a white neighborhood, not because I planned it that way, but because I was born here and so I'm culturally probably not as knowledgeable as I should be. So can somebody explain this to me? And I listed some things because somebody was upset, because somebody was at podcast movement and I said, well, hey, there's a guy in my high school that if I never see again I'm not going to be unhappy. I said, but he's still allowed to come to the you know class reunion.

And what was interesting was I wake up the next day and people like I can't believe you, jumped into that mess and I'm like well, I want to understand what's going on. Again, the teacher in me. And so I wake up and, sure enough, on Twitter, this guy's an idiot, doesn't know what he's talking about. I'm like did you read the first paragraph? I said I don't know what I'm talking about. And what was interesting is like you could almost hear them going wait, that's, I'm in the playbook here. It's on. Where does it say he's supposed to agree with us, you're supposed to call me a name. And then I'm going to say this and you get, I was like no. I was like no, I just. And I, because I would reply. I'm like you're right, I don't know what I'm talking about. That's why I posted this Would you like to get on a zoom call?

And that made people go, wait what? And I was like, yes, I would like to have this thing called a dialogue. And I'm like I'm not here to judge, I just want to hear your point of view. And so I had four people take me up on there Like, yeah, I'll help you understand.

This is what this is and this is why we feel this way, cause somebody said it was kind of a trans thing and they're like we don't feel safe going to places. I go well, do you feel safe going to Walmart? And I'm expecting them to say yes, and they said no, no, we don't. And I go really. And I go, wow, go, that would be a crappy way to live. And so it gave me a whole bunch of different insights and I was like, okay, so I hope podcasting doesn't get any kind of squelch. You're not going to like every podcast and if you don't, it's swipe left and hit delete. You never need to hear that again. So, yeah, I'm with you. I think long form interviews are great. I always say a podcast is a conversation with the boring parts removed. So yeah, I'm a big fan of that I say bring back the dialogue and let's do a little less of the national pastime is recreational outrage. That seems to be the thing.

0:44:26 - Harry Duran

Well, it's clear that the path you've followed has been working for you and you haven't been canceled, so that's good news.

0:44:33 - Dave Jackson

Well, I forget who I was listening to. And here's a fun name Jordan Peterson. He said if you don't stop, they haven't canceled you. And I was like that's a good point, because everybody's always they run to the corner and hide and but if like you, just go, yeah, ok, well, you don't like me and you took all my sponsors and whatever, but I'm still. You know, I'm assuming Alex Jones is still somewhere talking about their turn in the forums, gray, you know somewhere. So he's still doing his thing.

0:45:02 - Harry Duran

I'm wondering if you think about all the conversations people having on these topics and how they're able to just have this open forum. I think inevitably it feels like it's good, because when you hear someone talk over a long period of time, there's quotes that if you didn't know who they were attributed to, you'd be like well, it's a very inspirational thing. And then you're like, oh, hitler said that. You're like whoa, because everyone's like said something and I think throwing baby up with the bathwater.

But just listen for the messages that are inside that resonate with you. It's like what they say from spirituality perspective take resonates and discard the rest right, like it could be 0.01% that you resonate with and the other 99% literally just rubs you the wrong way and it's just like makes your skin crawl. But just there's some silver lining and some gold and I think we all had just a bit more patience and we're all able to just see each other as those little kids in the playground when they're like five years old, like there's no one seeing any skin color, no one's seeing hearing any different, like accent. They're just like pure love and they're just like radiating that and just know it's idyllic. But I hope we get to that point and by having more discourse, not less.

0:46:10 - Dave Jackson

Yeah, I have a friend of mine.

I grew up in a church lifestyle or whatever you want to call it, and he's a flaming atheist and if we only looked at what we disagreed on, we'd miss out.

He's a great musician, he's hilarious, he's funny, sarcastic, and I love hanging out with him. And he knows that, I know that, he knows that, I know, and like there's just a topic we're not going to get into. But I also know if I ever have a question, I can go to him and like, hey, this science thing you're talking about, what's the thing here? And so I mean, one of the things I love about you, harry, is you definitely have you've delved into more spiritual things like Buddhist and this and all the, and I'm like, so that's why I love hanging out with you, because you'll throw in something that I'm like I never thought of that or that's a thing or whatever. And so I love to learn. And so anytime I can hang around somebody that's not the same version of Dave Jackson that grew up here and knows this, and that I'm like, oh wait, a minute, it's the teacher in me, I want to learn stuff.

0:47:03 - Harry Duran

Yeah, it sounds like you're going to be a forever student and you're always going to find new things that you want to learn, and new things. You have this unique skill set where you're not only learning, but you're also helping because of the nature of who you are. Like other people, learning as well. So I think it's incredible what you've been doing for that Just the podcasting space itself. I can't imagine how many lives you've changed from people that have just learned from you. So I just want to publicly like congratulate you and thank you for all the work you're doing for the podcast and community.

0:47:30 - Dave Jackson

Thanks, man. Yeah, like I said, I have these old email lists and when I look at Mike wait, there's 2000. There's another list of how many people have I helped them? I lost track.

0:47:38 - Harry Duran

So it's something I love to do, otherwise, 18 years I'm really kind of feeling like I'm just getting warmed up If there's anyone who is listening I can't believe anyone fall into this category listening to this conversation but they have still yet to not start their show. They've been sitting on the fence for a while and they've been putting it off, maybe for a year, sometimes for decades, and I think, like I said earlier on, I just podcasting has changed my life and I can understand the power of it to change someone else's life. So what advice would you give? You get so many people coming to the Lips and Counter as well, just getting started. I don't know what I should do and like do you see any consistent threads? Or what guidance do you have? Or just getting over that hump?

0:48:18 - Dave Jackson

Yeah, the thing I see is they're really excited.

They know they want to start a podcast, they just don't know on what. So that's always kind of tricky. Or the thing I battle the most is it's not getting people over the tech, because the tech, I always tell people have you ever been in the car and like your jam came on and then the phone rang? Because you crank it up, they're like oh wow, the pointer sisters, yay. So you crank it up and then the phone rang. So then you turn the phone or you turn the radio down so you can hear your phone and I go OK, you know how to mix audio. Have you ever uploaded a Word doc to an email? And they're like yeah, like well, then you can upload an MP3 file to your media host. Have you ever? So there's all these things, not that there's no learning curve, but you're probably closer than you think. So what I have to battle all the time it's the mental part.

I had a client, really nice guy. He's a pilot. He's flown in a couple different of Iraq and all those different places. He's the guy that flies the plane that you then come and duck into so you can refuel. So he's an author and a keynote speaker and I'm like, ok, you have courage and content, why are you not podcasting? And so, finally, the one day I just got on Zoom with him, I go like, really, what's the deal here? I'm like because he would talk.

I'm like, dude, that was episode one, why weren't you recording that? And he said I think it's my military background. He goes, I'm afraid to look stupid. And I said, all right, not radio. I said go ahead and record episode one. I said do you trust me? He goes, oh, absolutely. I said, ok, if you sound stupid, I'll let you know. Here's where it needs a little polish. So he sent me episode one. I go, man, this is a great story, but it's pretty obvious you're reading this. I said, can you kind of go back and add a little voice inflection, sense it back? I'm like, man, this is so much better. And I said, if you wanted to, you could put this out. He goes hold on 20 minutes later.

Here's version three. I go, I can't even tell you're reading this. Now he goes. It's because I'm not. I know the story and I'm like maybe that's your process. And now he's having a blast and so I battle that a lot People are like why is anybody going to listen to me, which is fun.

So I talk them through that and so I'll walk people through. They'll finally launch and they go from nobody's going to listen to me. Then they get freaked out because, oh man, people are listening to me and I go yeah, I told you they would. And they're like and now they get that whole thing of wow, the microphone is low and I got to watch what I say. Maybe I shouldn't be telling stories about my spouse on the podcast. Yeah, that's a really good idea. Don't do that. So that's what I probably fight through the most. And so we're talking about the guitar. When I first learned to play the C chord, I didn't run out in the street and play the C chord and go hey, everybody pay me money. I know C. You start, you play in the basement a long time, and I would say authors have rough drafts, athletes have preseason, actors have dress rehearsals, maybe those first couple episodes unless you're Harry, of course, who's well, think about that. The vertical farming you had what? Nine years of practice before you launched that.

0:51:16 - Harry Duran

Yeah, of course yeah.

0:51:18 - Dave Jackson

So if this is not you after nine years of practice not that you have to have nine years of practice, but do a little practice get somebody who's not named mom to listen to your show. So they'll say this was really good, but that part there was kind of boring, because you don't want to put out stuff that's boring. And then just go out there and realize that, no matter what you do, by the time you get to episode 10, you're going to cringe when you listen to episode one. It's just the way it is, but it's the mental thing that I think that stops most people.

0:51:46 - Harry Duran

Well, timeless wisdom. I'm so appreciative of us having this ability to catch up. I always know that, just as much as we like to connect and say we're going to catch up and have a chat at a podcast conference, it never happens because there's so much going on Class reunion vibes you start to see everyone else and I think the days go by so quick and then we're just exhausted. So this was long overdue. I'm so happy we just got a chance to connect and that's one of the beauties of this. My show is just. I just love to connect with my friends and then occasionally bring some new people on and just share what's happening and just remind people of how amazing this journey has been so far. So I appreciate you coming on, my friend, and sharing some fun stories and getting people excited about the possibilities and the potentials, and also just this idea of always scratching your own itch and never being too shy to just try something new, and you're certainly the poster child for that.

0:52:32 - Dave Jackson

Well, thank you, harry. Man, it's always great to hang out with you and just a bunch of people, man. As soon as I see you guys, I'm like all right now, we're going to have some fun, we're going to go jump over some choppy cards. Stop recording, yeah.

0:52:43 - Harry Duran

Excellent.

0:52:44 - Dave Jackson

Thanks, man, I appreciate it.

0:52:46 - Harry Duran

OK, and anywhere we want to send people specifically to connect with you.

0:52:50 - Dave Jackson

Yeah, go to schoolofpodcastingcom is where you can find. That's like my main hub and then the other one. If you want to see all things, Dave, go to powerofpodcastingcom.

0:53:00 - Harry Duran

OK, I'll make sure all those links in the show. And thanks again, my friend.

0:53:03 - Dave Jackson

Thank you.