353 Brandon Birkmeyer - Secrets to Personal Branding Success

Harry Duran

0:00 - 0:07

So, Brendan Burkmeyer, host of the Brands on Brands podcast and author of Front and center leadership, thank you so much for joining me on podcast junkies.

Brandon Birkmeyer

0:09 - 0:12

Yeah, man. Happy to be here. This is going to be fun. Let's do it.

Harry Duran

0:13 - 1:05

This is one of those opportunities that I love about podcasting. I've been hosting this show since 2014, and I always appreciate the fact that I can just use this stage to have the conversations with the people I want to talk to. And we got connected through hanging out several times at podcast movements, connected to our mutual friend Travis Chappell, and like, oh, we should probably talk. Have a conversation that lasts longer than, like, a night out or a night at the bar. And, and as the night progresses, like, the conversation gets a little hazier and Hazier. So I was like, hey, let's, you know, did your book at the last podcast movement in DC. So it's been nice to have that. I don't know if it's the same for you, because I get the sense, you know, I'm halfway through the book, how much you've loved the opportunity to have the show, to just kind of have conversations with people who you're interested in talking to.

Brandon Birkmeyer

1:05 - 2:37

Yeah, no, I feel the same way. I mean, especially at those conferences, it's like we always end up at some late night, like International House of Pancakes or Denny's or late night diner, and it's, you never know where those conversations are going to go, but it's nice to actually sit down and talk with someone and, yeah, that, I remember the first conference, I think I met you was the first one I had been at for podcasting. And it was because our friend Travis had invited me. And it's funny, he invited everyone in our, like, mastermind group, which is, you know, it was like 30 or more people in that group. And out of everyone there, he was like, hey, show up to the conference and I'll introduce you to the people I know in podcasting. And I was the only person who showed up from his mastermind group, which it was such an advantage to know someone who knows a lot of podcasters. So I showed up, and he just walked me around and was like, here's Harry, here's John Lee Dumas, here's Jordan Harbinger. And just, you know, like, I got to know people in the industry very quickly. And it's exactly the, these kinds of experiences that I have been pushing into this book and telling stories with because that those little encounters, like going, trusting someone and just saying, okay, I'll go and his willingness to do that for me and do something nice for someone, like, I sing Travis's praises all the time and, like, it's a huge reputation builder for him. And I will keep, like, it's been, you know, I've known him 510 years now. It's like, I will keep talking about him. So that's personal branding right there.

Harry Duran

2:37 - 3:42

Shout out to Travis. Yeah, it's so interesting to see his journey because we connected when I was living in LA, and he had just been like, exit, you know, kind of like he was just finishing up the door to door salesman stuff. So he was kind of pitching the podcast idea. It was funny because a couple people that mastermind were like, well, you should kind of like, get into the door to door sales. You know, you're really good at it. And he's like, no, I think this podcast thing would be really good. So that was, I met him through John Corcoran. I think he was in one of his small, like, masterminds or something like that. And just to kind of see how he's took with it and ran with it, obviously, and has built up this huge visibility within the podcast space in this period of time has been so impressive to watch. But he's also just a testament to his character, like a really solid, down to earth guy and love hanging, spending time with him and Jackie at the podcast conferences. And so it's just a lot of fun to get to know and to know when you meet people. If you just were to see them from the outside and to have the benefit of knowing them personally and they're the same person. So the kind of the vibe that you get on the show when you hear him, you know that. I'm sure you and I can vouch for the fact that he's the same person when you meet him in real life.

Brandon Birkmeyer

3:43 - 3:56

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'd say he's more personable in person, but, yeah, it's, he's a good guy, and I think that's how a lot of podcasters are. It's nice to see behind the scenes and get to know people in real life, for sure.

Harry Duran

3:56 - 4:00

So where were you on your podcasting journey when you were in this mastermind with Travis?

Brandon Birkmeyer

4:00 - 6:23

It was the beginning. Like, I had, I had left corporate in 2018, and the first thing that I started consulting, doing marketing consulting, and I was like, I have a resume that was really great, but no one knew me. I had no reputation amongst entrepreneurs. I had no online content or presence. So I immediately started doing blogs and videos and social and podcasts and just kind of bootstrap things together. And when I got to know Travis, I had already launched the show in the brands on Brands podcast, and I had 30 episodes out and it was just solo shows. And, you know, me just finding my voice and perspective. And then I met, I found Travis show because I was looking for podcasts, kind of like it was my education tool. And I was looking up, like, how to be more, you know, how to network better, how to build relationships, how to be, you know, I discovered the art of charm podcast. I discovered Travis's, which at the time was called build your network. And I was like, these are great. And in Travis's episode, he said, hey, if you want to talk to me, like, here's my calendar. So I did that. I actually set up a call and got on the phone and he was like, hey, you should join my mastermind. And I was like, I don't want to. I don't, I'm not looking for that. But he did say, hey, I'm also, I also help people with podcasts. I do some coaching. I was like, you know, I'm just getting started, but I love what you've done with your show. Like, yeah, let's do some coaching. And he gave me the master. He's like, I'll throw in the mastermind for free. And that's how it started. But I, based on what I learned just through having mentorship and understanding more, I completely deleted the show and started over. Like, yeah, I, like, I added, I said, okay, I'm going to go three days a week now. This is the beginning. I'm going to add interviews with thought leaders and authors and speakers and marketing. I'm going to have a solo show also. And then I'm going to have, like a behind the scenes show and I'm going to launch with more episodes in my back pocket and just, and do a actual launch party and promotion. And it completely changed the way I was treating the show and valuing the show. And it's, you know, because I relaunched it the right way. I was like, oh, we're like, straight to the, you know, the, at the time, the new and noteworthy for seven weeks in higher rankings and things like that. So it definitely helped to get some coaching and mentorship in the space.

Harry Duran

6:23 - 6:31

If someone were to listen to those first round of episodes that you did compared to the relaunched and revamped episodes, what would be the difference?

Brandon Birkmeyer

6:32 - 7:34

I'd say the main difference was the format. The content was still, I was still finding my voice, but adding in the interviews, I think was a big difference because, and I think John Lee Dumas says this. I meant when I talked to him, he, like, has this idea that when you and someone else come together, it's two people sharing ideas, like something brand new forms, like new ideas come up that would have never come up before. So the opportunity to really talk to leaders in my industry changed how I think about things and changed how I come up with opinions and how I form my perspective. So I think it influenced how I think and how I, you know, come up with my own ideas. So just the format itself was the biggest difference. And yeah, I think just over time, I started to think differently about how I make a show and what kind of things I talk about instead of just how tos there was and that were random. Over time, I started to say, okay, how do I make this more consistent? How do I make topics that are more in line with, you know, one train of thought?

Harry Duran

7:35 - 8:23

And so when you started doing the solo content, a lot of people that start podcasting, if they've already got like, a subject matter that they're well versed in, like for you, for example, with brands and all the experience you had in corporate, did you find it easy to mine that for solo content? Because, you know, you do have to fill up a bit of space, you know, even if it's just doing like a 30 minutes show. And you have to have content that will engage people and keep them coming back. And so you like, to your point, you have to have a lot of content to create, whereas with an interview, it's sort of the content sort of creates itself because that dynamic conversation, you know, depending on the skill of the host and the, you know, and how entertaining the guest is, you know, you can usually fill up that hour pretty quickly. So what were you feeling was like a challenge for you or as you were getting started in terms of, like, generating all this solo content?

Brandon Birkmeyer

8:24 - 10:33

I'd say at first it was exciting because I did have, I had so many things that I hadn't shared over time. Like, in corporate, you're really just like, you're just checking boxes, you're giving recommendations, but you're not actually sharing unique perspective that is yours because, you know, you want to be corporate safe, basically. So it was really exciting to actually share how do I feel about this? And to, like, sharpen that over time. So that was really exciting for me. I actually feel like it was very powerful for me, for my confidence, for how I kind of go into, you know, building a business, building a brand. So for me, perspective is power. So that was what I was gaining from doing it. So, yeah. And I pulled from my old experience, but what I found out was that it was actually what unlocked me being able to do this more consistently was really having a structure for pulling out my ideas and for brainstorming. And the structure part of it was really simple. It was the way we write, like, term papers in college or high school. It's, you know, the. What's the main premise? What are three supporting points, and what's your conclusion? I once I made it simple, and it became not such a rant, and just here's how I do it. I'm like, oh, I could do this about anything. Like anything that you are generally interested. I'm like, if you were like, brandon, tell me about parenting, because I got kids. It's like, okay, well, here are three things about parenting. What to feed them, how to keep them active, and how to give them some values. I'm like, you can do that for anything. Like, pick three things and then tell some stories about how, you know, how you do that and what your opinions are. I'm like, man, once I realized it's that simple, just like, you have conversations with people, I was like, I could really do this about anything. I like marketing. That's why I talk about marketing and branding. Like, I enjoy it. It's like, when you're like, what do you do for fun? Like, I'm reading marketing books. I'm, like, looking, listening to marketing podcasts. Like, I nerd out on that stuff. I have hobbies, too, but this is how it's an expression. I'm, like, involved in marketing in a way that actually fulfills me. It's fun.

Harry Duran

10:34 - 11:50

Well, because also, then you have to apply it in real life, because now that you're an entrepreneur and you're a business owner, like, all those theoretical things, you learn about marketing, and most of you don't learn in school, you learn, like, on the job. And I've probably learned more about marketing since leaving corporate. Even though I was in corporate marketing, I was working more on the business intelligence side. So I wasn't directly involved in campaigns and stuff, but I was at e trade, right then they did some of the craziest stuff, you know, for the baby in the Super bowl, and you could kind of see how they were just thinking outside the box with these ideas. And so I think a lot of it, some of that through osmosis is just like, oh, it's like, oh, this is kind of the way they were thinking. As an entrepreneur, I've always felt like my marketing kicked brain kicked into overdrive. So now I can have conversations with other entrepreneurs and I notice I'll get into like a marketing flow where it's like my marketing brain is lit up and I'm like, oh, we could do this and try this and try this and try that. So with you, in terms of your corporate background, what was the thought process like when you went to get your job? You know, I know we all have a vision of where we think our life is going to go when we get the nine to five. And like, that's the holy grail. And like, I remember the first time, like I put on a suit for work, I'm like, this is it. Like I made it now and the first time, like you get your six figure salary and stuff like that. But I'm just curious for you personally, like, without getting into the full resume, like what that corporate journey was like for you.

Brandon Birkmeyer

11:51 - 14:18

It was, I would say I enjoyed it. But what's really true is that my value system, like I am someone who values certainty, like I am looking for the safe route. I'm not an entrepreneur by nature. So getting out of college, I studied marketing. Finding a job that was in the advertising space that ad agencies right out of college Washington. It just made sense for my personality. And most people, like, they changed over those 1st, 1510, 1520 years of a corporate life. They changed jobs and careers. There's multiple pivots, usually three to five. I think typically I had zero. I did this one career path for 17 plus years and I liked the job, but it was also just that's, I knew that this was a route that was safe and certain and I enjoyed that. And you could see the progression. But I would say this, when I got to those senior level positions where you're a director, you're a vp, that kind of stuff, I started to like that certainty started to waver. I started to realize that my bosses that were five or ten years ahead of me in the corporate structure, people I looked up to, mentors of mine, they were starting to lose jobs. And it's because there's less and less positions at the top. So when you'd see a, they're out of work, it would be for a year at a time or more. And I started like, oh my gosh, like, this isn't as certain as I thought. It was like the fear of my future got, you know, kind of overwhelmed the fear, like the need for certainty. I was like, this isn't certain. Like, what am I going to do? So I started to really rethink, how do I take back control of my progression, my opportunities, and my way forward? And, you know, and I started to do a lot of self kind of analysis and taking in content. And I was like, oh, this is where I realized, like, I have a resume, but I don't have a reputation, and I need to work on that and see what I can build on my own. That kind of started me down this road that we're on today. But, yeah, it all, but there's, I have a lot of great lessons that I want to take with me. Right. Like tools. I learned from marketing that if I didn't have those tools, I couldn't do anything that I do today. And I love to think about what are my stories, what are my lessons? What did I learn from an advertising campaign or a method that I can apply to podcasting or to personal branding or to just reputation building in general.

Harry Duran

14:19 - 15:39

Yeah. Something you alluded to in the early part of the book was this idea of like a little bit of a wake up moment for you. And you talked about not having that reputation because when you leave, you know, it's just a cliche in corporate world. Like, you only look at your LinkedIn when you have to change jobs or you have to, you know, or you get let go and you have to all of a sudden, like, brush up your resume, go look what's on LinkedIn. And that was sort of happened for me because I got sort of like, I realized that my last job was with a consultant. I was doing some consulting, and they'd hired someone who's got like 20 more years experience in that industry. And I was like, okay, writing's on the wall. Like, I need to, like, figure out something real quick. And then I just understood. And similar, probably, to what we talked about with Travis, I realized that networking is really important. And I just kind of deep dove into LinkedIn and joining, like, high end masterminds and associating myself with people who were smarter than me, knew more than me, or who knew this world of digital marketing. I remember that first time I joined an expensive mastermind. It was like 1500 bucks a month. And I was like, swimming in this like, sea of like six figure, seven figure entrepreneurs. And I just like that I had no clue even existed in, you know, what's digital marketing? And I always call it my digital Narnia. But I came across that Jim Roan coat. You're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. And I was like, whoa. Like, it just, you know, and it sounds like a similar journey that you were on, but this kind of, like, aha. Moment of this other world that existed.

Brandon Birkmeyer

15:39 - 18:00

Yeah, it's exactly right. And I. That journey was new for me. It was probably the hardest part was having never really done any networking. Relationship building or getting used to using those muscles was definitely an experience. And I talk about that in the book. It's like, I think there's three pieces to what I think really rounds you out when you're developing your reputation. One of them is, I think this thing we're doing right now, which is content creation, which I call one of the levers you pull for, is building authority in your market. The second is what we're talking about, networking. It's really, how do you build community? How do you build influence? And then the third is about creating impact through value creation that creates credibility. So I focus. Those three things are the biggest lessons I've pulled that I'm sharing back out right now. But, yeah, to your point, like, for example, with Apple, right, when we are, they have ads everywhere. They have an amazing product. They have beautiful stores. What's interesting to me is that they are great at partnering, right? It's not just Apple that's talking about Apple. You have all these phone carriers that are talk that they have to work with, that you can buy an Apple phone in, and they have to partner with those people, too. And you're going to see commercials that are like, hey, like this plan with the Apple phone. And so there's a collaboration there that nature, I think, raises all boats. But Apple itself has to establish its identity aside from that, because you're like T Mobile, not super classy, right? You walk into a T mobile store, it's kind of gross, but you walk into an Apple store, it's like a museum. It's beautiful. It's, you know, the glass walls and, like, the geek squad people or whatever they're called, the, you know, the Apple whatever they are, the geniuses. That's what it was. The Apple geniuses are, you know, not like customer service people. They feel like, you know, like experts in their field. So there's something about this, a kind of owning your own, you know, like identity, but then be figuring out ways to partner. And I think that's when I'm coming into, like, the podcasting space. I was like, oh, like I had a lucky encounter that turned into me realizing, oh, this is how I want to be. I want to find people like Harry that I can build friendships with. And then, who knows? Four years later, we're doing content together. And it's not forced. It was just because, hey, like, this works out. Why don't let's see if we can do a show together. And we didn't force it from the beginning because that's how relationships are.

Harry Duran

18:01 - 18:53

What would. You must come across colleagues, friends who are in the same position you were back in 2018, and I'm sure they're coming to you for guidance. And we have people that listen that are still in the corporate world and are always afraid to make the jump. And so I think you referenced it earlier, it's moving more and more to the point where you really feel that you don't have control of your own future when you're in corporate. And people just love that security blanket, and they feel like, as long as I keep getting that paycheck, you know, then I'm good. And they try not to rock the boat. But a lot of times, you know, these changes, these acquisitions, these, you know, they're letting people go all the time. Their cutbacks in staffing like those are out of your control. So, as I'm sure you've been having some types of these conversations with friends who are in sort of in that space, what guidance do you give them? Because I feel like this is happening a lot more to people.

Brandon Birkmeyer

18:54 - 20:57

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, what's, like, the hardest for me to see is the, like, open for work signs on LinkedIn for people that I know, but especially when it's the post comes out and they're like, I've been looking for a year, and you can feel the kind of, like, panic that's in their voice. And what's hard is when you're looking for a job, when you're out of work, it's the hardest time to find a job, right? And it's the most stressful. You're not your confident self. You don't have leverage. So it's almost too late to apply what I think is the best practices. So at that point, it's just, what can I get that'll get me grounded again? And that, I think, is just hustle and relationships and whatever else. But there's that saying, like, dig the well before you need the water. Right? So, for me, it's when you are in, when you have the job and the security, how do you wake yourself up to say, what can I do right now to invest in myself, to be employable, to be promotable, to be more desirable, to whatever that goal is from the beginning that I can work on right now. And I think of it as, like, you're this. There's a sea of sameness that happens, especially in a corporate environment, but it happens to all of us, too. Right. Sea of sameness amongst podcasts and whatever else. And what it is, it's based on fear and safety. Right. You stand too far out. It's like you're going to be judged. You're going to. You're going to, like, have a choice. You know, it's like as if you're in a herd. Like you're going to be the first one, you know, like chased down by the wolves or whatever. But for me, you have to incorporate. You're definitely encouraged not to stand out and to take a risk. It limits people from becoming leaders in organizations because you could just wait and see what happens and hope that your turn comes up. I think that mentality is the biggest problem, and when I looked at that deeper, when I said, if I look back at what really was happening to me, I think it was an unawareness of this type of reluctance that a lot of us have to put ourselves out there. And I actually realized it's three different things. If you don't mind me elaborating.

Harry Duran

20:58 - 20:59

Yeah, please do.

Brandon Birkmeyer

20:59 - 22:08

For me, and this is just my point of view on it, I think there's three types of reluctance. If we can be more aware of, it's easier to kind of deprogram ourselves a little bit. The first is just classic reluctance. Like, if you don't want to do something, you just don't want to do it. And you have good reasons. You're like, I don't want to eat at this restaurant because I don't like that kind of food, or, you know, I'm not in the mood right now. You have good reasons. So that's just classic reluctance. There's a good reason to do it. You don't feel like doing it, you decide not to do it. There's second type of reluctance I'm very much guilty of and that I like to call the thoughtful indecision where you are and, you know, overthinking all the different ways something can go. Analysis, paralysis, making a pros and cons list. You're dragging your feet because you want to have some certainty around your answer, right. That definitely can get in your way where you are slow to make decisions and also slow to get to opportunities. So, like, seeing where you could, you know, where does it actually matter? Like, are there certain situations where I should just make a decision and be faster. And then the third I like to call agreeableness. Right.

Harry Duran

22:08 - 22:09

These are.

Brandon Birkmeyer

22:09 - 23:09

This is like the consensus building. This is where you and four other people are in a group of, what do you want to do? I don't know. What do you want to do? Or what should we do? Let's take a vote. Let's see what happens and that these are all natural things that humans do because we don't want to rock the boat. But at the end of the day, if you're always agreeable, you may not ever get what you would have chosen in a situation, or your opinion may not be heard. And maybe that day you needed to fill your cup. Maybe that day it needed to go your way, for you to be the one who had the opportunity to, whatever it might be, get promoted, be seen, whatever it is. So I think if we can recognize these three things, that classic reluctance or that agreeableness or that thoughtful indecision, we can not all the time, but sometimes just say, you know, what if? What if today they just play it out. In my head, I did something a little different. Like, I went with my gut on something. I took a risk that was comfortable for me and see what happens and see where that could take you.

Harry Duran

23:10 - 23:31

How did this come to you? Because I know you touched on these three things in the book as well. And was this just sort of by experimenting yourself by trial and error, or were there people mentors that you, you know, you worked with or people you talked to on the podcast? I'm curious how, you know, this awareness of, you know, these types of behaviors came into your focus.

Brandon Birkmeyer

23:32 - 25:17

I think it was me looking backwards and saying, you know, I'm doing it more often now because as, like, when I jumped into entrepreneurship, you kind of had to, like, it becomes. There's more. Like, every day you're putting yourself out there. Every day you're taking a risk. Before that, I wasn't doing it. It was very rare. I was playing it safe. But then I would look back and say, did I ever take initiative? And, yeah, there are some big opportunities and changes in my life that wouldn't have happened otherwise. I never would have worked on Coca Cola had I not decided to chase my girlfriend across the country because I just missed her. The decision to completely uproot your life, to move to a different city when you have roots and a career and a job and connections, I think happens to all of us. A lot of us have that choice sometimes where you're like, well, it's a fork in the road. And usually it's like a new career, a job, a big move across, you know, to a different town, a new friendship, whatever it might be. And I think if we look back, a lot of us actually have been brave and taken some risks in our lives. And recognizing that you can do that and that you've seen some success in that, I think is very empowering to say, you know, maybe I could do this again. And once you get a little momentum in that, now I'm excited. Like, we moved across the country three years ago from Los Angeles to Raleigh on the same kind of gut feeling. That was like, you know what? Like, our lives could really change if we moved to somewhere that was 80% less expensive for housing costs. Like, what would that do to our lives? So I'd say it's. It wasn't like an instant realization, but it was definitely over time. And then looking back and doing, you know, I reflect more than I ever did before now that I'm getting older. But definitely it's increased since when I started.

Harry Duran

25:18 - 25:23

Talk about the origin story for the book. Like, where did you get the idea, and how did that process come about?

Brandon Birkmeyer

25:24 - 27:50

So I didn't want to write a book, Harry, if you had, if you really want to know. I thought that sounded like the worst waste of time, because the typing and sitting there and they're like, just sit down for an hour a day and try to write 500 words. I was like, that's a lot of days of doing that. That sounds like homework. I don't like it. So it wasn't on my priority list. I did want. Every year I take on a project. This is part of my mentality of self development. I'm like, what is my next project? Starting a podcast was a project. Building it to a YouTube channel, building online courses, and public speaking was on that list. This is what I want to do to continue to expand my reputation, to build out my skills, to connect with more people. I want to do public speaking. So I joined the National Speakers Association. I found some mentors. I looked at speakers who were doing it well, and I was like, what did they do? How did they get there? And took some. There was a course through the National Speakers association, and that was fine. And then my mentor, he's here locally in Raleigh. He speaks all over the country. He said, hey, Brandon, if you really want my advice, he said, I'd write a book. And I was like, stan, can you. What else? What other advice do you have? I was like, I don't need a book. I have a podcast that's my brand and a blog and a YouTube channel. He's like, well, no, there's something about a book that focuses your ideas to one central, like guiding principle. And a podcast is great. You create content every week, but you have kind of the room to meander and to kind of venture out. But, you know, just like a keynote speech, a book really has to, you have to get in there and say, what do I want this to be about? Who is this for? What problem does it solve? So he was right. And so I put, I said, okay, I'm going to pause on trying to pitch for speaking gigs and I'm going to put my head to the grindstone and write this book, what I want it to be about. And I knew it was going to be personal branding, and then I was like, well, who can it help? And it surprised me, but I really wanted to help the me from corporate, so I geared it towards that. I think the lessons apply to entrepreneurs or anyone whose reputation affects their business, really service based entrepreneurs. But really, it was written for the me that was back in the day. If I had started again, what would I have done different? What skills would I have focused on growing and to have maybe removed that ceiling and some of that risk when I was trying to move forward and grow?

Harry Duran

27:50 - 28:06

And what was that process like? It was there guidance in terms of what's the right format, because it's one of those things that people tackle and a lot of people probably start and never finish. And so I'm wondering how long the process took for folks that might be listening or watching and are interested in going down that route.

Brandon Birkmeyer

28:07 - 30:38

I love this question because the process was very, uh, intimidating for me. So if I can help someone else make this real simple, I always start with research. I was like, let me look at not research on my topic, research on what other people did to write books. And I found some speakers who had a book that was popular and a keynote that was tied to the book that was on YouTube. And I was like, oh, I can see how that core idea came to life in a keynote speech and in the book. And what they had done is they had a singular idea, and their singular idea had to do with the topic of how to be successful. And they said, okay, there's one secret to that, and then there's something to avoid. And so it was like, the secret to success is discipline, and the thing to avoid is procrastination. And I was like, wow, that's a. I can come up with something simple like that it doesn't have to be groundbreaking. And so when I started the book, I knew it was personal branding, but I was like, what stops people from personal branding, in my opinion? And for me, it was this idea of taking initiative. You have to take initiative if you want to be successful at putting yourself out there, at standing out. And for me, what's the opposite of that? What's holding people back from taking initiative? It's this reluctance. That's why I came up with this. I was like, what is reluctance? How does it manifest itself? And so that is the core of the start of the book. And then I already had my principles of what I think are the pieces of personal branding, this content, community and impact piece where I lay out that framework. But if I just talked about that, the book wouldn't have a heart to it. So finding these kind of core concepts really started me on the way. And then it was just a matter of figuring out how to do it because like I said, the writing stuff seemed terrible, but I was like, oh, my God, I'm recording podcasts all the time. I'm very comfortable speaking into a microphone. So guess what? Many books, maybe more than half the books, I don't really know the number, but I know it's high, are actually dictated. These days, people dictate their books, and you hire these wonderful editors to help turn it into something more readable versus listenable. So that's what I did, and I'll tell you, I'd sit down for three, 4 hours at a time after I had a well written outline, and in eight sessions I had 60,000 words. So the book was basically there. So it doesn't have to be hard. If you find a route that works with, you know, kind of how you.

Harry Duran

30:38 - 30:41

Work and then you self published it, right?

Brandon Birkmeyer

30:41 - 31:39

Yeah, that's a me thing, that everyone's different. If you're not interested in that, I would, you know, hire it out. But I personally like to learn how to do things my way and in ways other people have done it. But, like, then how do I like to do it? Because I then want to teach it back to people. I want to teach how I wrote a book to people. I want to teach how I created courses to people, how I started a podcast to people. Because to me, it's all part of this personal branding puzzle. And I love coaching, I love mentoring. So everything that I take on a project myself I see as an opportunity to learn it in a way that I would teach to other people. And the way that I like to teach it is, how do I make this, like, just what's necessary? Just like the simplest way to do this, not like the, you know, the most hard opus, like, this is your opus, or this is like the fanciest thing. So, yeah, I self published through KDP, and I watched a lot of videos on YouTube and again, looked at other people's books, and I asked some friends, like, what they did and just went from there.

Harry Duran

31:39 - 31:49

And so how is that now part of your process or your approach to getting more involved in, like, speaking and public speaking and looking for opportunities there?

Brandon Birkmeyer

31:49 - 33:31

Yeah, that's a great question. So part of the value of the book was a, I have a pitch that's connected to the book. And so when they see that, I think there's already an elevated, like, this person knows what they're talking about. There's some credit given, some proof of concept. So it's obviously connected in that way. It's. The title of the speeches are also called front and center. It also helped me focus on where do I want to pitch. Well, this is written for people in corporate, so my target for speaking was certain corporate offices, places like, I'm going to start. I'm starting in the marketing space and in the content creation space because there are places that I'm more comfortable. So it helped in that regard. But the other thing my coach helped me with is he said, the other reason to write a book is, as a business, sometimes the budget for speaking is separate than. They also have a book budget sometimes. So you could say, okay, here's my fee for speaking. But then on top of that, they might have another 100 books that they could buy to give to their employees or something. And that comes out of a different pocket, so it increases your fees. It's also a great business card to hand out. When I'm at conferences, I saw you at podcast movement. I was like, hey, we like people. I was running into, here's a book, here's a book, here's a book. And so it itself is a bit of a business card, and I'm sure your listeners have heard that before, but I think there's that, and then I think there's the focus of message. It's like, what is Brandon known for? People start to be like, oh, yeah, he has that book front and center leadership, that book that's about personal branding. So I think it also starts to become this thing that lives outside of you, where if you want to be known for something, you have some proof of concept that people can point to.

Harry Duran

33:32 - 33:42

So if you think about the time or the moment that you decided, do you want to do the book to the moment where you had the printed book in your hands? Like, what was that range of time?

Brandon Birkmeyer

33:42 - 34:53

I would say that was probably just about ten months from when I started. And really, the book had been written within, like, very quickly, like, within a month or two, and then I was doing self editing for another month or two. That was, like, through the holiday season. So getting through that first pass of me rechecking, it took a couple months, and then the editor was with it for a few weeks, and then there was some back and forth, and then it was, like, another two months of, like, cleaning it up, making sure it was exactly perfect, getting the COVID designed, and figuring out what my promotional plan was going to be, which, for most people, like, if you do it the right way, which I don't like, it's not such a huge thing for me, you would have finished the book and still had, like, you'd be promoting it for six months right before it comes out. And for me, that wasn't the plan that, you know, maybe if I have a second book, I'll do it that way. But this, I just needed it out so that I could be pitching speaking gigs with this done with the concepts clear. Cause in my head, they weren't fully clear until it was finished. Finished. And then. Yeah, so I. That's. I don't know if I answered your question, but that's basically what happened.

Harry Duran

34:53 - 34:57

And would you recommend, looking back at the process, that somebody actually work with.

Brandon Birkmeyer

34:57 - 35:57

A coach I like? I think there's lots of ways to learn for certain kinds of questions, whether it's a mentor or a paid coach, I think it definitely speeds up the process. I think getting to where I have. Well, I usually try to find either communities or people or both. So, like I said, with podcasting, I ran into Travis, but I was already starting to be like, okay, now I'm. Now I'm gonna join the podcasting community. Or I joined the speakers community and then found a mentor through that. That wasn't a paid program, but actually there was a smaller paid program that was fine. And then I. For marketing my book, it was YouTube videos. So, yeah, I think if you're doing it yourself, you're just always questioning, like, is this right? And for those, like I said, the people who are the thoughtful indecision, people who are sitting there dragging their feet on something, a great way to get past that is to just get someone else's opinion to, like, good. Got a gut check keep going, keep moving.

Harry Duran

35:58 - 36:17

Yeah. And so we chat a little bit about a podcast movement. I think you made a decision also to focus on the local market as opposed to just being a speaker who's just like constantly traveling, you know, the road warrior, you know, vision of speakers who get burned out eventually, you know, because they're just spending 300 days a year just traveling and speaking at these conferences.

Brandon Birkmeyer

36:18 - 38:01

Yeah. And I think it's a business. Like, what's your business plan? Right? And I think of, like, I'm in, everyone's like, oh, I have a coaching business, or I have a, an entrepreneurship business, a startup, or I have a course business, or a podcast business with ads. And for me it's just all a personal brand business. Right. Like, I am the product. I have ways that I help people, and I like that to be diversified. I want there to be different ways in. So, yeah, I've like created courses and that is one line of income. I have coaching. That's one. I like doing these things, I like making these things. And the speaking is just one more way in. I think for me it's probably more of a lead generator, a relationship builder for coaching and for courses as opposed to straight up being paid for speaking. But like, that is part of the income plan. So, yeah, I wanted the forticus locally because in my life stage, I have two young kids, I live in Raleigh, North Carolina, and I want to be around. I like being around. So if that means it slows me down a little bit, that's okay. Like, I moved here purposefully so that I could make decisions that were good for my life, not just good for the business. So I gave myself a lot of Runway, and now we can make decisions based on like, what actually we want our life to look like. So, yeah, local is great. Raleigh happens to be, they have a great airport, but also it's driving distance to lots of major cities. Atlanta, Nashville, Orlando, New York, Philly, Charlotte. Lots of places I could easily get to. And in that community find, you know, corporate headquarters, marketing associations and conferences, places to speak. And that's great. You know, if I can drive there and be back the next day, like, perfect.

Harry Duran

38:02 - 38:38

So how's might be just still early days, but how's that process going for like the outreach? You know, submitting an application to speak and, you know, thankfully I tend to do it in circles where I already have connections. So obviously like podcast movement, I just spoke, but, you know, I had a relationship with the founders and I've spoken there like three times, so I tend to stay in my lane of podcasting conferences. But for you, like, you know, for someone who's interested in, you know, let's say they've got the book now and they've got an approach. Without getting too much into the weeds, what's a sensible approach in terms of like, outreach? You did touch on marketing, you know, conferences, but what have we found so far that's been working?

Brandon Birkmeyer

38:39 - 41:04

Yeah. And I will say I am not the expert, right. But I've been studying experts and getting mentorship and asking. And I will tell you, besides the book, the second best piece of advice I received was that speakers speak. Right? Like, the more you're out there, the more people will see you, the more you'll be referable. But you have to be speaking. And how do you get those speaking gigs? Well, you have to be out there pitching yourself. So that may sound obvious, but I'll be honest. I was there myself. I have friends that are there that we fantasize about, like, oh, just people reaching out to us and giving us speaking gigs. Right. The easy ones. The truth is, if you're not out there hitting the floor and reaching out and emailing people and applying to all these different places, you're not going to get the momentum needed to get started. Just like when I started the podcast the second time where I like reach out to a bunch of people and I like set up a launch party. Same thing for the speaking business. It needs a push, a momentum driver where you are actually physically reaching out and putting yourself out there for a lot of things. Sometimes free things, sometimes not free things. So I reached out to the American Marketing association, the National Speakers association, the Society of Human Resource Management association for Talent Development. Groups like that have local chapters, right? They have a chapter that's in just Raleigh. Like there's a group of people here, but they also are national and they're locally networked. So if I can get a job here in Raleigh, I can also speak to their group in Charlotte and to their group in Atlanta. And that's going to get me in front of decision makers for paid opportunities. And I'm not making this up. This is things I'm learning from other people and I'm just executing the plan. And I know that I'm bad at this. So what do I do when I'm bad at something? I learn what I need to do and then I figure out how to get it done. I'm not the person to reach out. I found someone who was reaching out for other people and I said, hey, I would love it. If you work for me. So I paid someone to help me come up with the list of events to compile it, create a spreadsheet to come up with contacts. We put that into my email management system and we're shooting emails out and seeing who's opening them and they're helping me do that. You know, I just approve a couple of things and then like, what the pitch looks like. But if I didn't have them doing it, I wouldn't do it. I just, that's not the thing that like fires me up. So I'll avoid it. I'll find like find a podcast to record or a YouTube video to edit, you know, instead of doing what I need to do.

Harry Duran

41:04 - 42:00

Yeah. It's this idea of focusing on the things that you're genius at. Right. You know, only because I think the way it was described to me is like this. These four types of tasks, those are incompetent at those you're competent at, those you're excellent at, and then you're genius. Obviously, those first two, you get off your plate as quick as possible. But the excellent is where like, you know, a lot of entrepreneurs get stuck because like web design, you know, I could do a little bit of like web stuff and just dabble in there. And it wasn't until like years ago I got stuck like for four or 5 hours trying to fix something on my website. I was like, I called a web design friend and he fixed it in five minutes. And I was like, ah, that's your genius. I get it. You know, so, you know, I think it's really figuring out like there are things we can do and probably could do okay, and we're excellent at it, but it's, again, it's not that zone of genius. And I think the more and more we realize this, as entrepreneurs find, as there's a good book about the who, not the how. Like when you need something done, like figure out who can do it for you, not how am I going to get this done.

Brandon Birkmeyer

42:00 - 43:01

Yeah. And I think what happens is too, the price sometimes scares us, right? Because a lot of that costs money. And I realized if I can pay the premium upfront to get the momentum started to get the things moving, then I can figure out how do I make this more efficient, how do I save money. It's like when I started the podcast, I just paid an editing agency and it was fine, but I definitely was paying like four, five times what I'm paying now because I just needed it done. I needed to not worry about it. And then I. When I was like, okay, I think I have a hang for this. Maybe I can, like, find my own editor instead of an agency, build a relationship, vet who the people are. But I couldn't do that all at once. I could have done in the beginning. It would have slowed everything down. So you pay a little bit more. So right now, I'm paying someone more than I should, I'm sure, worth it for this stage, but more than I could be paying for outreach. But eventually I'll, you know, I'll try to refine that system and make it better and make it more cost, you know, effective for the time that's going into it.

Harry Duran

43:01 - 43:04

Are you sharing any of this journey on the podcast?

Brandon Birkmeyer

43:05 - 44:18

I'm starting to. I'm starting to. It's, uh. The podcast goes up and down. I, like. I don't always like to talk about the thing I'm right in the middle of. It's like, don't scare your. Share your scabs, share your scars. You know, like, after you've kind of gone through it, what the lessons learned were. But I'll share. If I get a quick lesson that's tied to a story, something happening right now, I'll share that because I think that's fun. And the podcast, I'll say this. I'm not, like, I've been pretty consistent with the podcast, but as these projects have taken on, I've been less consistent. I still. I'm putting podcasts out, but there's been breaks here or there because of, like, you know what? It doesn't have to be like, oh, my God, I've destroyed my podcast because I missed an episode, right? It's better if you don't. But it, like, it's okay. Like, you give yourself a little bit of grace as long as you're committed to, like, is this part of your world or not? And a podcast has always been part of my world, a part of, like, how I create and express myself. It'll always be there. Um, but I've given myself a little bit of grace when trying to get this book out that, like, it's not going to be as good as some of the other episodes until I'm back into, you know, a normal rhythm. And I'm starting to get back into that now that the book is out. But it's like, that's okay. You know, we're nothing. Always firing all cylinders.

Harry Duran

44:18 - 44:23

How have you grown or matured as a host since starting the show?

Brandon Birkmeyer

44:24 - 46:26

Have I grown? I don't know what I would say, because I'm doing more interviews now, and, I mean, I'm being interviewed now. And I think the way I interview has changed the way I research people, the way I like when people come into my world has changed. Like, for example, like, for this conversation we didn't have, like, he. I was like, hey, Harry, send me all your questions and let me analyze your questions. And is this right? And we just, we get on, we talk about it. You led the conversation. We have it. It's had a nice flow and you're listening and it feels natural. But I can tell in some podcasts, it's like, when I started, too, it was like, here are my questions, right? And then here's a section where I shift to these kind of questions. That's fine, too. People have that thing, but if it's so regimented, you lose it. So for me, what I'm really proud of is when I meet people, especially my guests now, most of them are an expert in something. I figure out what they're an expert in and what kind of questions I get really curious to ask to an expert like that. Like, even if it's not like, for example, a speaker who, their main topic is customer experience, right? I brought one of those on my show and I was like, hey, let's talk about customer experience for a little bit. But really what I want to know is how did you speak 300 times across the country this year about customer experience? That's what I want to know because that's the journey I'm on right now. And guess what? I got all these great insights. That wasn't their main expertise, but I talked about both, and I knew that they'd have a great time talking about it and would know what to share about those things because they've done it. And I think those kind of conversations where you're genuinely curious, you've done the work ahead of time, and you didn't ask your guest, like, to do the work for you. You know, I think that's the magic right there. Cause again, like, I'm doing a lot more podcasts now. I'm getting sent forms to fill out, like, answer all these questions, check their questions. I'm like, hey, it'd be great if I just show up and you guys like, genuinely ask what you're curious about.

Harry Duran

46:28 - 47:31

Yeah, I think that that's been the journey that I've been on because with this show, it's like 350 interviews and my second show, vertical farming podcast, I interview CEO's and founders and that's 100, like in 40 plus, so, you know, closing in on 500 interviews across both shows and just learned over the years that it's really a matter of being genuinely curious about the people you bring on the show. So I always, look, I want to be excited, like, when I see the invitation on my calendar, like, oh, we're gonna have a conversation with Brandon. And like you said, I don't do a lot of preparation, but I'm just, like, paying attention to what you're saying. Pulling threads. I always say there's the three people in the conversation, the host, the guest, and the listener. Singular. One person listening at a time on their earbuds and their headphones. And so as long as I feel like, you know, I'm keeping the conversation going, helps me keep stay on my toes as well. And to your point, like, I'm following the threads, I'm asking questions about the book, you know, process as well, because that's something that I'm interested in. I've done some public speaking as well. So, again, just following your curiosity, and I think that pulls the listener along and keeps them engaged in the conversation, which I think is key.

Brandon Birkmeyer

47:31 - 47:38

Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. It's a fun part of the process. You get kind of proud of the work you do. You're like, I'm glad I'm getting better at this. You know, it feels good.

Harry Duran

47:38 - 47:46

Yeah, you put in the reps. So a couple of questions that I like to ask my guests as we get close to wrapping up. What is something you've changed your mind about recently?

Brandon Birkmeyer

47:47 - 49:08

Something I've changed my mind about recently. Oh, man. God, that's a good question. I think most of the work I'm doing right now is with the book. And I think when I was putting the book out, I thought to myself, you know, like, this is going to be like, the focus. I have to build this whole other brand around the book and shift to that being the focus. And I think what I've changed to realize is it is like, we are dynamic people. We get to kind of because we're not just a business or like a product, like a razor or tube of toothpaste. We can be dynamic. We can have lots of things going on. Like, you have a vertical farming podcast, and a podcast for podcasters are completely different things. So it's okay. That's normal. As a human, I think that I realized with the book is that it can have its own life. Like, it helps me position myself in personal branding, in the leadership space, in the corporate space. Great. My podcast doesn't have to be about personal branding for corporate leaders. It can still be where I want to take it. And, like, I can continue to explore my curiosity there, which was a nice realization that I didn't have to, you know, like, be so consistent across everything I do along the way.

Harry Duran

49:09 - 50:02

Yeah, I feel like that's more of a trend. It's like the, this idea of the generalist and just dabbling in a bunch of different things and learning. Like, you know, like they say Leonardo da Vinci. Like, he was a sculptor, he was a painter, he was a musician, he was an artist. Like, he did all these things. And obviously he's known for a couple, but I think it broadens, like, your perspective on life if you can. Like, you've dabbled in a bunch of different things. And, you know, I write a weekly newsletter on my personal site@haridran.com, and it's really about sharing my journey. Cause as I get older, I'm like, I talk about djing. I talk about spirituality. I talk about a vertical farming podcast. I talk about going to a podcast conference. I talk about my life in corporate. So, and these are all the things that make us up as human beings. So I think it would be doing a disservice to our audience if we just, like, narrowly focus. And, like, this is the only thing that I want to focus on. Cause I think that model is somewhat dated. Cause people would have the book, and that's all they'd be known for. Like, that book, and, like, that's their one thing, their one shiny moment in life.

Brandon Birkmeyer

50:02 - 51:12

And that's the common ground. Like, when people like Harry, it's because of these other things. Like, they could learn podcasting from anybody or the business of podcasting or whatever, but, like, they want to learn from you because when they meet you, you are a person, you have a personality, you have experiences, you have a history, and something about those things are going to draw some people to you and push others away. And, like, that's the beauty of it. And that's what makes enough room for there to be more than one person in something, right? Is that not, we're not all for everybody. So, yeah, I agree. And I think in my marketing career, even though it was one career, like, my whole life, I always avoided specialization. Like, marketing changes a lot. I was always the generalist. I was in the strategy and planning, but there was lots of roads that were like, hey, digital advertising was just getting started. It was like, you can be the digital advertising specialist, and then it was the social advertising specialist, and then it was the Facebook ads specialist, and then it was, you know, like, the next thing and the next thing. And I was like, I want to know it all. Like, I'm happy to learn it, but I still want to be the person that they ask and say, but which one? Like, how do I choose? And I'm like, yeah, that's called strategy. Let's talk about that.

Harry Duran

51:13 - 52:01

Yeah, that's good. It's interesting. We were on the topic of branding. I worked with a coach a couple of years ago, and she's like, what are you best in the world at? And I was like, well, that's an interesting question. And I was just kind of like coming out of the spiritual closet, and I was like, I want to work with people in the wellness space who are doing, like, you know, interesting work and, like, spirituality, but still in podcasting. And I was pulling all these ideas together, and we came up with, I came up with eventually with a tagline, which is now on my LinkedIn post, of all places, but it says, I am the cosmic conduit for awakened souls ready to transmit their message to a global audience. And that's one of those, like you said, repels people just as fast as it attracts them. Statements. But I've had people, like, reach out to me specifically on LinkedIn. It's like, why did you connect with me? And they're like. And they show me a screenshot of, like, the header on LinkedIn. I was like, this caught my eye and I'm curious to learn more. So that just kind of speaks to what you're talking about.

Brandon Birkmeyer

52:02 - 52:04

Yeah, I love it. I love it.

Harry Duran

52:04 - 52:08

Last question. What is the most misunderstood thing about you?

Brandon Birkmeyer

52:09 - 53:20

Ooh, that's a good one. I think for me, when I'm out at conferences and I meet people there, I mean, you get a couple of versions of me, but the version that gets, I'm a tall guy, I'm very noticeable. I wear a hat. You know, I'm going to all the social functions. And so there's, and I am an extrovert. Like, that's not a misconception. That is me. But I'm also like, I was raised by a single mom, just me and her. And so I'm not, like, the most. What do they call it? Like, I'm shy at first. Like, I have to find ways to make myself comfortable for that extroversion to kind of fulfill itself. So it takes me a while, and I'm better with a couple of people first. Like, I like intimate conversations, one on one, one on two, one on three, to really, I think, get into the personality of people, and I think that people wouldn't expect that at first because I kind of seem like I'm bouncing around a lot, but what I enjoy most are those kind of one on one conversations and that, like, connection, which is why I love coaching, which is why I love teaching, and because it's a lot of. It ends up being like, you're really getting to know people better one on one.

Harry Duran

53:20 - 54:27

Well, I appreciate you sharing that. And it seems to be a common thread. You know, people call themselves situational extroverts, and I find it, too, because you go to podcasts, moving for, like, two or three days, and then you come back home and just want to get back in my cave and just, like. Like, decompress. And I'm the type of person as well that's like, I'm the guy singing at the karaoke bar at the conference, but, like, when I'm back home, I'm just like, you know, definitely, like, the opposite of that back home. It's just, I think is you need that ability to just, like, chill so. Well, I really appreciate the fact that we got to know each other. And, again, shout out to Travis for introducing us. And there's something magical that happens when you spend a couple of days with the core group, because what happens is, like, we have our crew now, so, like, whenever. If it's podcast movement, it's typically the same people, like, you know, I'll get the text from you. Like, hey, I'm here at the conference, or I'll reach, you know, Travis was there, and my partner Natalie, and we just kind of tend to hang together, and we just. I feel like you can go deeper. You know, it's this idea of, like, instead of going, like, shallow and just superficially with a bunch of people, it's just finding that core group, and just every time we get together now, we'll go deeper and deeper and deeper. And I think that's what makes just for more enriching relationships and friendships.

Brandon Birkmeyer

54:27 - 55:19

Yeah, I love it, too. For me, it's like, it's nice to not have to force it. So when I know that you're going to come to a lot of these events, too, or someone else is, then I'm not trying to, like, squeeze everything about getting to know you into that, like, first conversation or second. Like, I just get to be like, every time I get to meet you, I get to know a little something extra, you know, like, what the next thing in your life is where you just move what's, you know, happening in your business? And we get these little onions of that and a personality, you know, these layers of the onion. And I think that's beautiful. And that's, like, how relationships should be. There's, like, way less pressure when you know that, like, I'll probably see Harry again and again and again and, like, I just let that grow naturally. So, yeah, I appreciate getting to know you, man, and all of our friends at the conferences. And this would never have happened had we not just, like, let it go. And it's been years, and, like, this is the first time we've done this kind of thing together. So that's awesome. That's awesome.

Harry Duran

55:19 - 56:01

And it's just a reminder of, like, the, I always call the podcast your stage. Like, you can literally, like, make it whatever you want it to be. And I think I talked about this at my talk as well. And just like, you know, who do you want to have conversations with? Like, create a podcast around that. And I think more and more people are coming aware of that. You know, obviously we talked about in the beginning conversation, people who are in corporate just don't know what to do. Just like, you know, start that podcast and believe me, it's, it'll reap awards. I said it at the talk. But podcasting has changed my life definitely for the positive. So I wouldn't be where I am today with, without it. So I appreciate you, like, sharing a bit of your backstory, learning all the stuff that's going on, and having this long form conversation to learn more about you. So where's the best place to send folks if they want to dig into a little bit more?

Brandon Birkmeyer

56:02 - 56:34

Yeah, I appreciate that. And the book is front and center leadership, which Harry's generously mentioned, and brandonburkmeyer.com is where all that information is about the book. And if you go to that books tab, there's a bonus section where if someone wants to get, like, a personality test to know, like, hey, let me answer these ten questions and see where I am on my personal branding journey. You'll get a scorecard. And there's some other, like, freebie, like, tutorial things there, too, that I won't mention, but there's plenty of bonuses and resources@brandonbreckmeyer.com. dot for everyone to check out.

Harry Duran

56:34 - 56:38

Okay. We'll make sure all those links are in the show notes as well. Thanks for the time, Brandon. I really appreciate it.

Brandon Birkmeyer

56:38 - 56:38

Thank you.