319 Anne Claessen - From Corporate Law to Backpacking Digital Nomad

0:00:00 - Speaker 1

So Anne Klassen, host of the podcast Babe and Digital Nomad Stories, Thank you so much for joining me on podcast junkies.

0:00:06 - Speaker 2

Yeah, thank you so much for having me, harry.

0:00:09 - Speaker 1

So where in the world are you calling from?

0:00:12 - Speaker 2

I am in Germany.

0:00:14 - Speaker 1

In Germany. Okay, we'll part.

0:00:16 - Speaker 2

In Hamburg, so in the north.

0:00:18 - Speaker 1

Hamburg. Okay, are you born and raised there?

0:00:21 - Speaker 2

No, i'm from the Netherlands, but my boyfriend is from Germany, so we moved to Germany together. Well, actually, after I met him, eventually I moved to Germany.

0:00:31 - Speaker 1

It's always interesting how you end up in different places, because of love or because of relationships. I'm actually Minneapolis and it's because my partner is originally from here, but, as you can probably guess from the hat, new York is my original home, right.

0:00:46 - Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you got to do what you got to do, and I mean I work remotely. I think you do too, probably. So, yeah, it's a little bit easier to move around.

0:00:55 - Speaker 1

I think a lot of people reevaluated what was possible remotely and what they thought was possible before the pandemic and what we were forced to after the pandemic, and I think people now see this more as a real lifestyle. And maybe we can start there with your experience being a nomad. It was probably harder to convince someone that this was a possible lifestyle pre-COVID And, i think, after COVID I think people see the possibilities. So talk a little bit about the nomadic part, because that's interesting for me As well.

0:01:26 - Speaker 2

Yeah, absolutely true. So what happened for me is I finished all my university degrees and things and was going to start a job, but I actually decided, you know what, i just don't see myself sitting in an office every day. So I decided, okay, i don't want that. But I didn't know what it was that I wanted to do. So as a true millennial, sold all my stuff backpacked Southeast Asia And while I was on my travels I thought, okay, i want to keep going, i don't want to go home. So how do I make money?

So that's kind of like how remote work and nomading started for me. And what I did I started my own company. So I started the podcast babes, which was called differently back then but eventually turned into the podcast babes. So I started managing other people's podcasts. After a while, after I learned how to do that and work with a few clients, i was like this is cool, i want to start my own podcast. And that is what is now digital nomad stories. So yeah, that's a few years ago, before the pandemic and everything, and yeah, i've been doing that ever since.

0:02:30 - Speaker 1

And you're friends with Ben Kruger.

0:02:32 - Speaker 2

Yeah, i actually work with him right now, okay.

0:02:35 - Speaker 1

So Ben Kruger and we know each other well. We've crossed paths because of the podcasting space. Obviously, he's been doing his business for a long time almost 10 years And my show is just hitting the nine-year anniversary. So I started this show in 2014. So Ben has been doing it for a while, and so when I saw that you were connected, i was like Ben, it's so funny, because it's one of those relationships where we keep crossing paths, but we never had him on a show. So this is just another reminder that I need to reach out and get him on this show, because it's always fun, especially to talk to people that have been doing this as long as he has. I thought I was late when I started podcasting 2014, but it was still early days and there's been so many waves. Do you remember when you first got interested? Was it more as a listener first, before you started realizing it's something you might want to start working with, absolutely as a listener.

0:03:26 - Speaker 2

When I was in university I listened to a lot of travel podcasts because I was obsessed with traveling And I found one podcast in particular that was so interesting. They talked about a long-term travel, about digital nomad lifestyle also. That's where I learned that that was a thing And how to work abroad a little bit of like expat life, and I just listened to that podcast several times a week when I was in university just studying doing my thing, but then after studying I would always listen to that podcast And that show literally has changed my life because it made me understand that this lifestyle is possible And that's why I decided to start traveling And not go into the corporate world and just like go from there and see what happens, but just that whole idea of this is a lifestyle that people live and that it is even possible at all. That was really from that show. So podcasts definitely changed my life in several ways, but that was the first way. And how I eventually ended up working in podcasting is because, like I said, i was trying to find a way to make money online so I could keep traveling, and my kind of solution to that problem was going to be to become a VA Ended up not becoming a VA, but I took a course to become a VA And one of the modules was podcast management.

So I went through that module and I was just surprised to see that there was a whole industry behind these podcasts that I always listened to. I was like, okay, this is really cool, like these people. they just work on this every day and I had no idea. So when I learned that I was like what I want is to like, it just all made sense. All of a sudden I was like this I think this is it for me. So yeah, that's also what happened. I started working with one client and then two clients and then kind of went from there.

0:05:32 - Speaker 1

You were in university, where did you think you wanted to be working, what did you study? or your interests?

0:05:39 - Speaker 2

Yeah, I actually studied law. So I went to law school. I was going to be a big ass fancy Amine lawyer for one of the big firms.

0:05:48 - Speaker 1

Oh, interesting.

0:05:49 - Speaker 2

Yeah, i actually had the job lined up and called them after I graduated and I said you know what? this is not for me. Like you can give the job to someone else.

0:06:00 - Speaker 1

Wow.

0:06:01 - Speaker 2

I'm not gonna go.

0:06:03 - Speaker 1

Why specifically M&A? So for people who don't know, that's mergers and acquisitions.

0:06:08 - Speaker 2

Yes, it's mergers and acquisitions. So law was my main thing, but I also took business courses. I actually also have a masters in business, which I did kind of like simultaneously to all the law stuff. And M&A is the most businessy you can get within law. Like you said, at a big table with like business consultants and I don't know like managers and I don't know everyone, And you're just on the side of the lawyers, but you're in that room with all these people talking about, okay, are we going to take over a business and what is it going to look like? And it's a lot of like negotiations and things like that, which is something I find really interesting. Still, Yeah. So that was why M&A and why I wanted to do that.

0:06:54 - Speaker 1

Where did your interest in that come from. Is it what you were studying in school or do you have family that was involved in it?

0:07:01 - Speaker 2

No, not at all. It's a really good question why I went to study that, because I actually found out, like after studying that and like now doing my own thing, and it doesn't really suit my personality at all, like it's not really me. So yeah, i kind of found out that it was not a good fit, and I'm not a hundred percent sure why I thought it would be a good fit. I think it was one of these situations where I had to do something At least I thought I had to study something and I was like, hmm, sounds pretty good.

0:07:38 - Speaker 1

Sounds like it worked out on a better path for you, then.

0:07:42 - Speaker 2

Yeah, unexpected, but I'm glad with how it went, like how it worked out eventually.

0:07:48 - Speaker 1

So where did the passion for travel like? how was that ignited? Did you do a lot of travel when you were younger, or how did that start to blossom for you?

0:07:56 - Speaker 2

I remember that with my parents we didn't really travel a lot when I was younger. I mean, i grew up in Europe, so we went to Italy a few times, which is, i mean, it's really cool.

0:08:07 - Speaker 1

A bit easier.

0:08:09 - Speaker 2

I mean, for us that's not a huge thing. You know, like every family goes to Italy in summer.

0:08:14 - Speaker 1

For the weekend.

0:08:17 - Speaker 2

Yeah, but we did that like I think twice, twice when I was a kid.

But I had a friend, a best friend, in high school and we're still besties, i still travel with her And she was obsessed with traveling and we did some trips in high schools together where we would go to Paris with the whole class. Again, paris is not far from where I grew up, so it sounds like a whole thing, but it's like a five hour bus ride, so we would go really early in the mornings and then we had the whole day in Paris and then drove back the next evening, so then during the night, and we did it a few times and I don't know it was always so much fun with her and just like seeing this new city. And then we went to Rome and I don't know like it just kind of went from there, where we were like you know what, this is really cool, we should go somewhere else. So then we went to a different city in Europe and a different city and then to South America, i don't know it kind of like escalated from there.

0:09:20 - Speaker 1

What do you remember from those early trips? Was it just the experience to all these different cultures? You know? what was it that kept getting you excited about trying these new experiences?

0:09:31 - Speaker 2

I just find it wild that you sit in a bus or on a plane for a while and then all of a sudden you walk out of that building or out of that bus and everything is different. You know, it looks different, it smells different, people are different, like different languages, different currencies often, and just that whole experience. I think that's just so interesting. It makes you think about what I find normal not necessarily normal there, so I think just that it makes you think about all these things. Like is it, is this good thing to do? Like do I like this, do I not like this? How is it here? Is that better or worse? How I have it at home and how do people live their life here? I just find that so interesting.

0:10:19 - Speaker 1

It seems like you have this inherent curiosity about life.

0:10:23 - Speaker 2

Yeah, i think so. I always want to know everything, definitely.

0:10:30 - Speaker 1

Was that you as a child?

0:10:32 - Speaker 2

Yes, i think so. I always ask a lot of questions. I think that makes sense now that I have my podcast, where I have a really good excuse to ask people all the questions that I want to ask them. But I always had that.

I remember one of my friends once told me that she was impressed with how fast I can build a connection with another person. Like someone I just meet. I can apparently build a connection really quick And I always had that also, just thinking back to elementary school where people would always tell me their secrets And I was always like why do you tell me all this stuff? Like get out, i don't want to know all your crap. Like, tell someone else, but sometimes also fun. But yeah, i always kind of had that and I never really knew why or that that was even a thing. But when she, when my friend, said that, i was like oh yeah, that's true. And then years later I started my podcast and everything And I started thinking a little bit about why do I like this so much? And I was like, hmm, i just really like that I can ask people everything I want to know about their life and they just tell me.

0:11:43 - Speaker 1

If you had to think back to this skill that you have for getting people to trust you and to make them feel relaxed, having done it for several times And you know, in conversations when you were younger and now through your podcast, are you able to look back and see what it is about? Is it your personalities, is it your ability to listen And you know, do you see now, like the skills that you have that allow people to feel comfortable? because it's very important, especially for podcasting, especially, you know as a podcast host, to help your guests feel at ease.

0:12:15 - Speaker 2

Yeah, I think part of it is humor. just making a little joke before hitting record is usually what I do Okay.

And I also think being vulnerable, just myself, and sharing my own stuff, i think that also makes people feel like I trust them, so that they can trust me, kind of that idea. So I think, also for podcasters, it makes sense if, like, if you want people to tell you their whole life story or share a lot with you, and I think it makes sense to also share a little bit with them. Just, i mean, you don't have to share your deepest secrets, but just a little bit about your life or your personality, or yeah.

0:12:59 - Speaker 1

I feel like it's certain levels, because if you are a little bit vulnerable, sometimes I think what I find is, when I know I want to ask a personal question, i start by sharing a personal story first, and then I make myself a little bit vulnerable and I think what I've found over the years is that help guests see like, oh, he's being a little vulnerable. So I feel a little bit comfortable and it's almost a little bit of a dance back and forth to see if I think what they're trying to see is you know, can they trust you with their secrets or with their personal stories?

0:13:29 - Speaker 2

Exactly. Yeah, I think so too.

0:13:31 - Speaker 1

And so obviously, because this is a podcast about podcasting, i always enjoy when there's like background noise and now there's like I think somebody blowing leaves or a truck or something like that. So I just I don't know if you can hear it, but I love the fact that it never fails, and you've probably started to experience this as well.

Like you plan everything the best and then it happens to be like the trash day and the truck is like making a noise or there's a siren or something. But I roll with the punches here, because this is since we're talking to podcasters about podcasting now over the years. I just leave everything. The dog jumps into the lap, the mailman comes and we get this connected. I mispronounce the name. It's just like it's a reminder that you know we're not, you know, public radio or like NPR. You know we don't have to sound perfect And I think I think it's helpful for new podcasters as well to remind them. Look, you're just. You know your first is not going to sound that good, and then your, your 10th is going to sound better, and then your 50th is going to sound better. So for you as a podcaster, as you started your own show, how do you like? where did you go to learn what to do And how did you see that you were starting to improve over time?

0:14:40 - Speaker 2

So the funny thing is that I actually started working with clients first before starting my own show And I had this idea that, okay, i know how to do all this stuff, so and it's what I do every day, so when I start my own show, it needs to be perfect, like it needs to be super professional. So every time I was like, okay, i'm not there yet, i'm not there yet, i don't have a mic, i don't have this, i don't have a perfect space to record. You know, there was always something.

And at some point I was like okay, Excuse Yeah there's always an excuse, and at some point I was like this is it, i'm just going to do it And we'll just have to roll with it. You know, this is what it is And it needs to be good enough. Progress over perfection. So that's what I did. I actually started digital nomad stories first, so it's also it's very casual. You know, it's not about podcasting. Now I have a link to my business there, but I mean, that's not where we got most of our leads, obviously because it's just, you know, because it's just it's about travel and digital nomad lifestyle. But back then I didn't even link the two. I was just like this is my podcast, this is my business, and they're completely separate. So that also made it a little bit easier for myself to answer your question When I started versus now. Like, what kind of like changed for me or what did I get better at?

I think, interviewing, you know, like listening to a lot of interviews and doing the actual interview yourself, especially when you have quote, unquote, big names on the show. You know, like people that are have a huge following and you really look up to, it can be it can be a little bit stressful and also exciting. I actually had this happen, that, like the horrible thing, the nightmare happened, where I had someone on a show who I really looked up to big fan of her, have been for years and I mispronounced her name, and I don't even know why, because I mean I know her name. It's also not complicated, you know. So that was such a fail, but also survive that, yeah of course.

Yeah, and I think I always just think like things like that happened. She was totally fine. You know, she was not super insulted or anything. And my approach with podcasting is also it needs to be a good experience for the listener. So what you just said, like if there's a leafblower, if the trash gets picked, whatever, like it doesn't matter, as long as your listener has a good experience.

0:17:18 - Speaker 1

Yeah, and I think it's helpful to let people know that. You know we're all human and you know, as you saw, i checked with you on the pronunciation of your last name because I've learned also over the years. You know it's better to just ask than to just assume, and even I've had people tell me the correct pronunciation and I still get it wrong those first couple of times, so that's normal. How many episodes in are you with the digital nomad podcast?

0:17:43 - Speaker 2

I'm now at I think we have done 130 ish interviews and I've also done some short story episodes. Okay, So that's actually part of an interview where I picked like five to 10 minutes of an interview where we discuss one specific topic and I rereleased that as a separate episode.

0:18:07 - Speaker 1

You said we do, you have a co-host.

0:18:09 - Speaker 2

I do have a co-host. Yes, yeah, her name is Kendra. She's awesome And it's still my podcast, though, but she helps me with, like, recording episodes and, like she does every usually, every other week she records an episode, and it's so much fun to do it together. I love it.

0:18:26 - Speaker 1

Who's been one of your favorite guests that you've had on the show.

0:18:30 - Speaker 2

Oh, that's a really, really good question. I've had this a few times where we were just chatting and all of a sudden the conversation just went deep. You know where it's like philosophical life questions come up and like those kind of interviews. I love that. I also love that in real life. I like deep conversations. I'm not necessarily a big fan of small talk. I want to know everything you know. So I want to know what you think about the purpose of life. So, yeah, that happened a few times. I don't really have one come up now that I would say is really my favorite, but that's hype of interview.

0:19:10 - Speaker 1

So I can't miss the opportunity to ask you what you think is the purpose of life. Sorry, we don't have to go too deep, but I'm just curious because I'm the same way. I mean, i'm very I'm spiritual person. I love going deep. I love, you know, having conversations. I love having meaningful conversations that are not just surface level, because I think those are the ones that I resonate with the most. It's the reason why I keep doing the show, because I want to have meaningful conversations.

I don't have like a ton of just random conversations. I'm just I'm. I want to be in a position where, when I see the interview on my calendar, i'm like okay, this is exciting, let's see what's gonna happen with this conversation, and that's a feeling I want to continue to have. And I feel like Leaving space for people to feel safe about these types of conversations is a skill that I just want to continue to improve. So you know again, not to get too deep and we don't have hours and hours to go down this rabbit hole. But, like you know, when you think about a topic like that, what comes to mind?

0:20:11 - Speaker 2

I mean, i had a lot of conversations about this, so I have an answer ready for you and.

So I think the purpose of life is to enjoy the ride and and have moments of happiness. So I think being happy the whole time It's that's not possible. But I think having these moments where you're like, yeah, this is awesome. You know, whatever that might be the cat could be just drinking a coffee in the sun, but or it could be, i don't know, doing something really really cool like bungee jumping or whatever. But just having these moments that you're like, yeah, this is really cool, this is awesome, just like that, those little moments of happiness, i think that's it.

0:20:53 - Speaker 1

How do you know when you're in a moment of happiness?

0:20:56 - Speaker 2

Whoo great question. I'm glad we're not going deep here. How do you know when you have a moment of happiness? I think for me it's one of these moments where I can feel present, where I'm not thinking about I have to hang the laundry and I have to do I don't know, like all these household things or work or what I'm gonna do Tomorrow or yesterday, but just here.

0:21:22 - Speaker 1

Yeah, do you have people that you follow or that inspire you or that you're motivated by in that space?

0:21:30 - Speaker 2

I've read a few self-help books and things like that and I love that stuff. Haven't done that for in a while but I like, i'm a big fan of Jan. What is her name?

0:21:45 - Speaker 1

since zero, since oh Jensen, zero, yeah, yeah yeah, jensen zero.

0:21:48 - Speaker 2

Okay, yeah, i think her books are awesome. I love her books, yeah, so a few other ones that I have here on the shelf if you think of any, let me know.

0:21:57 - Speaker 1

Yeah, we'll put them in the show notes.

0:21:59 - Speaker 2

Yeah, okay, okay, i will. I'll take a look at the bookshelf and see what I have there. But, harry, i also want to know now like what do you think is the purpose of life? I also want you to Answer this question now, please.

0:22:11 - Speaker 1

This is what happens when you get two podcast hosts on a show.

0:22:15 - Speaker 2

Inevitably, sorry, I'm taking over the interview I.

0:22:18 - Speaker 1

Think the purpose is like. I believe I've been on the spiritual journey probably since late 90s to 20 plus years Buddhism, spirituality, like you know, astrology, like all sorts of rabbit holes, ancient civilizations, you know we talk about like all that topics. There's really nothing but no rabbit hole that I haven't gone down. Egypt, all this sort of stuff. It really fascinates me. But I heard someone explain it once that says we're we're conscious beings, we're here on earth to have a conscious experience and just share our experience with people that were here and Really, like that's the purpose of life to live this life But not just live it in a vacuum. Live it and share the ups and downs, because what you're doing when you do that is you help people who are on a similar journey And I always feel like you know you're it's not like you're on this ladder and you're learning from people who are or steps. You're learning for people who a couple of steps above you, being inspired by them, being motivated by them, and then there's people that are on the same journey, but just maybe one or two steps behind you, and by you sharing what you've been doing. And I've been doing this recently on On my newsletter on harry gerand comm. Since October, every Saturday morning I published newsletter and it's like this is what's happening in my world. It's not a marketing newsletter.

You know, i shifted gears and I realized, you know, what's better for me is to share stories. So I should talk about my career journey. I talk about my journey with podcasting. I check about my ADHD. I talk about my session with my therapist. I talk about everything my DJing, i love electronic music, like so many different interests. I talk about Egypt and my fascination with, like, the pyramids, like it's been all over the place.

I never know which of those stories are gonna help someone, but I feel like they will and they have, because I get feedback. I get people replying. So even on the podcast, even in this show, this is why I'll probably never give up this podcast, because it's like a beautiful platform for me to just have these types of conversations. You never know who's listening. You never know when people are gonna hear the right message at the right time.

So I always encourage people like get out of your own comfort zone and You know, if you're not sharing your story, you're doing a disservice to humanity, because people need to hear your story. I always say everyone has a voice inside them and don't wait you know, for me, 20, 30 years, like I did, to get your voice out. You know, just, even if you think your story is not important, it's important to the right person who needs to hear. At that moment, and I feel like that's a bit of like my purpose is just to kind of use these tools, use these like platforms and Whatever little exposure and and visibility. I have to just talk about what's happening in my life And I think people see the pieces that help them. It might just help them, might just need be the message that they needed to hear that day.

0:25:06 - Speaker 2

Yeah, making a positive impact. I like that a lot. Yeah, i think it's also funny, like at least for my podcast. Sometimes I think I don't know how well this episode will do, i don't know how well it will resonate with my audience. And then sometimes it surprises me so much where the episodes that I'm not sure about They do the best and, like, people share it with their friends and I don't know, they're super excited about the topic and If I wouldn't have made that episode, you know, then it wouldn't have been out there and they wouldn't have been able to do that. So I think that's also interesting to Keep in mind. Also, like when you were shared, what exactly what you said, you don't know which stories resonate with someone.

0:25:49 - Speaker 1

Yeah, and so let's talk about the in terms of so that's the support and help you provide with friends and turn on a Self-help level, but on the podcast help level, and talk about your interest in helping people start their shows a Where did that come from and what have you learned as you've been helping people Find their own voice through podcasting, because obviously that's where the podcast does.

0:26:13 - Speaker 2

Yeah, learned a lot. I think Main thing I learned is that when I started I thought that a podcast is Just a way to be visible, a little bit like Blogging YouTube. I thought, oh it's, it's all a little bit the same. And I learned that That is not necessarily true. You can treat it the same, but if you treat your podcast like a podcast, then it can be so much more. It's a great platform.

0:26:45 - Speaker 1

It's a great you said treat your podcast like a podcast. But what do you specifically mean when you say that?

0:26:50 - Speaker 2

So I mean, instead of treating your podcast just like a blog, like there are some strategies or Things that you can do with a podcast that you cannot do with a blog or with a YouTube channel, and you can use those things to your advantage and really make the most of the platform, and Also just looking at, like, what works for other podcasters, what are best practices doesn't mean that it's necessarily also the best for your podcast, but know what's going on. I think that's super important so that you know, like what works for other people. You can at least consider it. So, not just treating it like any other marketing channel, but really looking at, okay, what works for podcast and how can you really use it to your advantage and make the most of it.

0:27:40 - Speaker 1

What have you seen when you get started with clients, because we have an agency as well. We produced over like a hundred shows since 2015, since we launched, and it's been always fascinating to see how nervous clients are in the beginning. You know when, like there's a lot they don't know, and I always tell them look, don't worry, i'm here, i'm going to hold your hand throughout the entire process. I imagine it's something similar for you. So do you see that journey and that growth for your clients, that nervousness in the beginning and then, because of your help, they're able to gain that confidence as their show progresses and as their show grows?

0:28:12 - Speaker 2

Absolutely A lot of clients when they especially before launching a podcast when they come to us, they're a little bit all over the place where they have so many different ideas and so many questions like what do I do with this?

And then all of a sudden, i don't know, you get an email. I had a great idea, what do I like? or what do I do with this? I mean, i think that's also really important to have that excitement, but it's also really important to then have someone to say, okay, this is what we will do now, this is what you need to do, this is what I will do, and next step is this. So, just like that step by step approach and having a process in place and systems and just telling clients exactly this is what we need from you, this is what you can expect from us. I think that is super important to also make it possible to not just launch the show but also keep going after launch, because a lot of clients honestly forget that They are like okay let's get ready for this launch, and then, after the launch, it's like oh no, i don't have an episode for next week.

Yeah, so that is definitely something that we help clients with to also think about. okay, so after the launch, what will that look like? And why do you even start a podcast? How can you keep going? Because I mean, as we all know as podcasters, it is difficult to keep going when you have a podcast Like the first, i think. seven episodes, that's, i think, what most podcasters do before they pod fade. Yeah, and I mean I've been there, i've done exactly seven episodes before I pod faded and then eventually came back.

0:29:50 - Speaker 1

One of the things we do and this might be something helpful for you as well for clients is one of the exercises we've started recently is this part of the set of process. I have them create a title for their first 12 episodes without recording. This is all you need is a pen and a paper. We plan like because now you know, seo title on, the titles are very SEO friendly, like Google is searching and indexing titles, and so we make them long. You know, when we produce them, long titles that are very descriptive.

But it's a helpful exercise because people think about. You know they don't have to find a guest, they don't have to like record anything, but they think about if I was going to create an episode about this topic, what would I talk about or who would I invite in my show. So it helps them get into the habit of thinking ahead because, like you said, like when I remember starting with early clients as well, like they would just get so excited to launch and then I'm like lose momentum and then get burned out or just like, oh wow, this is harder than I thought, like it's really setting expectations. Do you think a podcast is for everyone?

0:30:50 - Speaker 2

I think it can be for everyone, but not everyone will want it. I think some people they think they want a podcast but they actually don't. And what I mean by that is that there can definitely be short term success with podcasts. But I think the real magic happens when you can stay consistent and you keep podcasting for a really long time. That's when the real magic happens. And not saying I don't think that, okay, you cannot expect any result from podcasting in the first six months, one year. I'm not saying that I think you can.

0:31:31 - Speaker 1

Three years, five years.

0:31:33 - Speaker 2

No, no, I think there will definitely be results sooner than that. If you, like I said, you know, look at mass practices like what works for other people, but it just gets better and better, or longer that you do it, I think.

0:31:47 - Speaker 1

Have you found that to be the case for you as well?

0:31:50 - Speaker 2

Yes, absolutely. I've actually done an experiment with digital nomad stories because I wanted to know what would happen if I record and release weekly episodes for one whole year. So that's what I've done.

0:32:07 - Speaker 1

Okay.

0:32:08 - Speaker 2

We're actually still going, and it is now more than two years and we haven't skipped a single week. And what I was really interested in is, like, is that even worth it? You know, like everyone says, oh, consistency is so important, blah, blah, blah. But I was wondering, like, why? Like okay, people say that, but is that actually the case? Like, how important is this really?

And what I've seen is that just for being consistent, without putting a lot of effort or time into marketing or promoting the podcast, my podcast has grown significantly just by being consistent. So I thought that was super interesting. So that's also something that we tell clients now, of course, and I think it doesn't mean that everyone has to do weekly podcasts or everyone has to be super consistent, but I think it really depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to grow a new audience, then I think it makes a lot of sense to be super consistent and not take too many breaks or long breaks. There's nothing wrong with taking breaks, but it just, you know, like you can still take a break and also release consistent content. You have to just have to work ahead a bit. So, yeah, then I recommend that.

0:33:25 - Speaker 1

How many different countries have you been to?

0:33:27 - Speaker 2

Quite a few. I don't know, i don't have a number, i have never counted them, but quite a few. A lot more to go though.

0:33:37 - Speaker 1

I think that might be a nice, might be a good metric for the podcast. You know, like in the States, I remember I was young and we would go on road trips McDonald's, UT McDonald's, everywhere And they would have the sign and every McDonald's, over 55 billion served. They would tell you, like, how many people were served, But on your show you could be like you know 67 countries and counting. You know something like that. You know, because it's digital nomads stories, And obviously so do you think the idea of digital nomad is still as quote unquote, sexy as it used to be? I remember when I first got started as an entrepreneur, leaving my job, I listened to Ben Croupe. I think I found Ben through a podcast that he was on and there was a mastermind group about digital nomads And I was like, well, this is great, People are going to live in Bali Dynamite circle, I think.

Dynamite circle. I was a man. Yeah, definitely So do you think? obviously, when you're in it, it feels like everybody's in it, and I was like, oh my God, i got to try this out, but is it still something that people are excited about, or more or less? What's your take on that now?

0:34:38 - Speaker 2

What I see from interviewing so many digital nomads is that the people who do this the longest they're all slowing down, including myself. So in the first few years it was so exciting and I was going through a different country every month and just moving around a lot and seeing as much as I could. But now, after I've been a digital nomad now for four and a half years, is that true? Yeah, i think that's true. So, yeah, i've traveled quite a bit in those four and a half years, but I also just have that Well, i would say confidence that I can keep doing this forever if I want to. So there's no rush. You know, before I was like, okay, i got to do this now because I am like I don't know. I felt like this is my one chance to do this, but now I just believe that I could go every month if I wanted to, and I can do this for years and years, maybe until I'm too old to travel, and then I'll do something else.

0:35:41 - Speaker 1

I'll go on a cruise or whatever.

0:35:44 - Speaker 2

But yeah, that rush is gone and I see that, with so many nomads where they're all slowing down, all like six months in one place, maybe three months and yeah, or having a home base and traveling from that home base, which is exactly what I'm doing now.

0:36:01 - Speaker 1

Yeah, what's on your short list of places you still want to see?

0:36:05 - Speaker 2

So I was actually thinking about that today. I think about it almost every day. I really want to go to Madrid. I've been before. I just loved it. I don't know what exactly it was, because it was raining and it was cold, but I just love the city. I just like the vibe. I don't know, it was awesome. So I really want to go back to Madrid, and I was there only for four days, and now I want to go back for a little bit longer. I'm thinking like three or four weeks, and I also want to go to Istanbul, to Turkey.

0:36:38 - Speaker 1

Yeah, looks interesting.

0:36:39 - Speaker 2

Maybe even travel around Turkey a bit. So that's also really high on the list. And Jordan.

0:36:46 - Speaker 1

Oh, wow, okay.

0:36:47 - Speaker 2

Also high on the list.

0:36:48 - Speaker 1

I've been to Madrid, barcelona, and love that part of the world. I mean, it's just the culture there is really interesting. I'm Latino background as well, so it's really nice. I love that. I've been to Berlin and spent a couple of weeks in Italy as well, so love Amsterdam as well. So just UK. So always excited at some point to get back and see different parts of the world, but it's so interesting.

I went to Dubai for because of my second show, my vertical farming podcast. My sponsor, my, actually flew me out there for a conference, indoor farming conference. So, again because of my podcast. There's a I don't know if you heard of Dave Jackson School of Podcasting. He's like, oh gee, he's been podcasting forever.

He always has this saying because of my podcast, because my podcast, like, how many doors have been opened And I think about where I am today with my first show, my agency, my second show, and the opportunities that they've been opened up, the friendships, the partnerships, the conversations. It started to your point to bring in the back full circle, because I launched the show in April of 2014, because I went to New Media Expo in January of 2014 to learn how to podcast And it's just like it's. It's an amazing door opener. So if you had to think about this idea because of my podcast, like, can you think of, you know, one thing or one or two things that pop into your mind that you know have been possible for you because you took that first step on this podcast journey?

0:38:15 - Speaker 2

Well, i think for me, like the weirdest thing is when people send me actual stuff, like I get a book in the mail from someone I interviewed and just that it is a physical product. I just think that is so weird. Like I just do this thing on the internet, you know so then all of a sudden that there is a book in my bookshelf and it's a few books in my bookshelf now that just I don't know.

0:38:39 - Speaker 1

I just know I have one as well too.

0:38:41 - Speaker 2

Yeah, like I can say I know the author like crazy, So that just I don't know. My brain is just really struggling with that. So just keep up with that. Yeah, And seeing people I've interviewed in real life, I also think that that is just yeah, oh, my God, i love that. I love that piece Yeah.

0:39:04 - Speaker 1

Or people recognizing you because of your voice in real life.

0:39:09 - Speaker 2

I had that too, So we did a podcast meetup in Madagin Colombia for digital nomad stories.

And I was like, okay, let's see, we did it at Selena because my co-host was staying at Selena and she did some like work there, so anyway. So I was like, okay, we'll see. I was a little bit nervous. I was like, okay, well, people would just think that it's just a meetup and they probably never heard of the podcast. And then I'm going to be there like hi, like I do this podcast. You know, i felt so weird about that. That was not what was going on at all. It was so cool. Like people came up to me and they were like so you're the podcast host. I was like, yeah, and I was like, oh, i listen every week, i love your show. And I was like this is so weird, like you're just a download number and my boss brought it. That was so cool.

0:40:06 - Speaker 1

And it's really like a humbling experience, because I've had that. it happened with podcast junkies. I remember I was at podcast movement and some woman came up to me. She's like oh Harry, your voice is so soothing, Sometimes like I listened to your podcast and then I fall asleep.

0:40:22 - Speaker 2

Is that a compliment, though?

0:40:24 - Speaker 1

And then one time she said her like her husband came in and she's like who are you listening to? And I was like I felt it was a nice compliment. And then, obviously, when they tell you how this happened with the second show, with Vertical Farming Podcast, like oh my God, i've been learning so much about the industry. I've gone back and I've listened to every episode and I'm just like whoa, i have like 90 episodes. I was like this is crazy And you know what?

I think it's humbling and it's helpful to kind of like understand that what we do is like adding value for people. And it comes back to what I talked about Like if we didn't start like we don't know who those listeners are, we don't even know where in the world right now it's global Anyone who speaks your language and understands you can listen to your show. And when you look at these download numbers and you see like 10 downloads from, like you know, kenya or just random countries like small countries, you're like well, this people that's a real person, that's a real person that's listening to you. And to get to experience that firsthand I think is always a reminder of like remembering that what we do adds value. But it wouldn't have happened if we hadn't taken that first step.

0:41:28 - Speaker 2

Yeah, it's easy to forget that these numbers that you see, they're actual people that are listening to your podcast. So, for everyone who's thinking no one is listening to the show, that is not true. Like, even if you have 10 listeners, there are 10 humans listening to your voice, which is super awesome.

0:41:46 - Speaker 1

Yeah, i've got a couple more questions as we wrap up. What's something you've changed your mind about recently? Well, yeah, i think I've changed it.

0:41:53 - Speaker 2

I never changed my mind. no, I'm joking, I'm always right.

0:41:58 - Speaker 1

Change my mind, about changing my mind.

0:42:02 - Speaker 2

What have I changed my mind about recently? Well, I feel like in a phase of life that I'm happy to pay for convenience.

Like before I wanted. I didn't want to like order stuff online when I had to pay delivery fees, when the delivery fees were high or I don't know like things like that. Or ordering food. Too often I was like, no, that's such a waste of money or I don't know like all of these little things. And now that I'm I don't know just busy doing other things, i just would happily pay for many things to make life easier.

So I think what I changed my mind about is using money to make life easier. That is kind of my money goal now Using it to make life easier.

0:42:57 - Speaker 1

Change in mindset.

0:42:58 - Speaker 2

Yeah.

0:42:58 - Speaker 1

You know, it's interesting the way it was described to me as I started to learning and you get into this world of, like entrepreneurship and digital marketing, this concept of opportunity cost like what's an hour of your time worth? And for people that have a salary, that's easy. But if you're an entrepreneur like figure out what you make in a year and figure out what that would be like in an hourly salary and the way I've heard it described is you can pay someone less than that to do a task that you don't want to do. It's a better use of your time, right? Because your time as you get more and more like I charged $250 an hour to do consulting now, like if I'm paying someone 30 bucks an hour, 50 bucks an hour, whatever it is it seems like a lot when you're getting started, but you would rather spend an hour of your time building your business because you can do these high return activities that get you more visibility or get you more clients or whatever it is. It's a better use of your brain power and I think you know, speaking to what you said, it's like oh, this helps my life be easier, you know, and helps take stress off my plate or take something off my mind that I don't have to worry about, and I think that comes with time and it comes with practice and trying things and seeing what you do like to do and what you don't like to do where your genius is, and so it's a helpful exercise. I heard it described as these four types of tasks those you're incompetent at, those you're competent at, those you're excellent at and then you're genius. So obviously, the first two incompetent and incompetent, like you want to get those off your plate, like having someone clean your house or like you know things like that. You know you think about those tasks Where entrepreneurs get challenged sometimes. Is the third one excellent, because they're things that you're pretty good at but you're not an expert.

So, like for me, it was like web design. I was like, oh, i can do a little bit. And then one day I spent like six hours trying to fix something on my website. I was like, ah, this is like I paid someone. They fixed it in like five minutes. I was like, ah, that's your genius. So I've been thinking about this idea of like, what's my genius and what are? one of my coaches asked me what are you best in the world at, and that's an interesting like experiment to think about, like, oh, because it feels like who am I to say I'm the best in the world and anything, but if you put all your life experiences together and you merge them, there's no one that really has the combination of all your experiences, your skills, you know, if you put them all together. And so it's a helpful exercise to think about. Where are those things that you really like your superpower like, where you really add value?

0:45:19 - Speaker 2

I also think energy management. Like I think when you're really really good at something and you also enjoyed a lot, it won't take a lot of your energy. So you couldn't probably do that all day. Like I could be interviewing people for my podcast all day, it doesn't cause me any energy. but some other things, oh my God, like couldn't even do it for five minutes because it's just so draining. It just drains my energy completely. So I think that's also important to think about, like thinking about like making life easy, doing the things that you're a genius at.

0:45:53 - Speaker 1

What do you think is the most misunderstood thing about you?

0:45:58 - Speaker 2

I think a lot of people think that I'm very outgoing That's what I've heard Like people think that I'm outgoing and confident, and sometimes I am, but I also I would say that I'm an introvert, but I can act extroverted for a limited amount of time, but then after that I need to recharge and sit on a couch with a book and see no one.

0:46:22 - Speaker 1

Yeah, Yeah, it is an energy exchange And I feel that same way. I use almost the same exact answer for me, because I used to think, oh, i like going to conferences, i like speaking in podcasts, but what happens is it takes energy to do that And I'll go to a conference for three days. I'll come back home, back into my office and just like I need to like decompress and chill. So like it's, i feel like the term is a situationally extroverted Yes, exactly, that's it.

Well, we hadn't ever met before. So thank you to your team for reaching out and then, you know, putting you on my radar and scheduling this and getting everything coordinated for us to have this conversation, cause it's a great way for it continue to meet all interesting folks in this world of podcasting. So I really enjoyed our conversation and I'm glad we had a chance to connect, and I'm grateful to you for sharing your story as well. Yeah.

0:47:13 - Speaker 2

Thank you so much for having me, harry. It was really great to be here and to chat and to get to know you a little bit. And, yeah, thank you so much.

0:47:21 - Speaker 1

Where's the best place for folks to learn more about what you're working on?

0:47:24 - Speaker 2

The podcast basecom or digital nomad storiesco. So without them. Thanks.