035 Jessica Kupferman | Why A Woman’s Perspective Is Vital In Business And Podcasting
Jared Easley Interview Transcription

Ryan Williams:
You're not going to get rich with a podcast. If anything, you may lose money, because you've got to buy equipment, you've got to spend time that you're not making money putting it into the show. But if you can figure out other ways of growing your network and making better business connections – I think that I have been able to get in the room with people that I'll work with in the next few years.
Harry Duran:
PODCAST JUNKIES. EPISODE 36.
This intro is being recorded from a hotel room somewhere in the North part of California. So it's interesting because I don't have another guest lined up, I just have today's guest that I'm going to give an intro for. It sort of speaks to the ephemeral nature of podcasting because it's a challenge to always get things lined up perfectly, and every podcaster who's listening right now can relate to that theme about the best-laid plans.
But it's okay, because I think every podcast has its own ebb and flow, and this one's no different. I'm happy to introduce today's guest; he's Ryan Williams. He's the host of The Influencer Economy, and I met him (as I always do) through an introduction from a friend who thought we would hit it off on the podcast, and he was correct. It's very similar – the stories Ryan and I had. He's had some really good guests and he's had about, let's see, 45 episodes now, and he's had folks like Jordan Harbinger and Tucker Max and Jayson Gaignard on the podcast. It's called The Influencer Economy, and from iTunes itself, it says that he ‘explores the world of influence of social media on people, building revolutionary ideas online. Listeners can learn from guests who make up the elite class of influencers; a group comprised of creators, entrepreneurs and writers.'
I've heard several of the interviews that Ryan has has, and I think what's a common theme is that he finds a connection with his guests. I was especially drawn to his interview with Tucker Max because I think at some point they started talking about sports or baseball, if I'm not mistaken, but it just speaks to the fact that you can't treat each guest the same, and you can't think that what works for your previous one is going to work for the next one. I think it's a function of paying attention to who you have and to the experience you have when you have a guest who's sort of being in the moment with you. If you're not in the moment, you're going to miss what he's saying and you're not going to take the opportunity to find a connection.
So I think that's what I did, and that's why you'll hear that our conversation is pretty relaxed for two people, who as of a month ago, didn't even know each other. I don't think you would have guessed that, and it just speaks to Ryan's style and my style. I think at some point, you'll actually hear him interview me, which is always interesting! But it's just a reminder of why I do the podcast, and why it's so entertaining because you just never know where this will lead you.
So for all you podcasters who are just getting started, and you wonder why you podcast – if you do it for the love of podcasting, if you do it for the interaction you have with people who you had not even known of weeks or months ago, and just for the chance of getting to speak to interesting people, then I think you're on the right path. And I think Ryan would agree with you. And I think you'll enjoy this conversation I had with Mr Ryan Williams of The Influencer Economy.
Welcome, one more time, to Podcast Junkies, Mr Ryan Williams.
Ryan Williams:
Thank you so much for having me, I'm happy to be here!
Harry Duran:
It's always fun and interesting to – I wish I had enough time to prepare a B-roll for all the behind-the-scenes stuff that's happened with all the interviews I've had so far; I'm sure you've had stories too of interesting stuff that other podcasters would probably get a laugh out of.
Ryan:
Oh yeah, all the behind-the-scenes conversations and mishaps. When you're first starting out, you don't know how to use the equipment very well.
Harry:
Yeah.
Ryan:
So I had that one interview that I never published because it didn't record properly.
Harry:
Yeah. So far – knock on wood – I haven't had one that I haven't published. I did have one where I was speaking to someone and like six minutes in, it was going really well, and I realized that the call recorder light wasn't blinking and I was like ‘Ah man, shit.'
Ryan:
What did you do?
Harry:
I just kept going. I said ‘You didn't happen to be recording on your end?' There was a couple of tidbits in the beginning that we missed, but the interview went for almost an hour so I still had plenty of material left.
Ryan:
Yeah, always try to record as much as possible. But there was that one time and it was about my 4th interview and I didn't record it at all. I used this program that I don't use anymore, and it was a friend luckily, so it wasn't a deal-breaker. It's like buy or beware for people when they are first starting out with their podcast, where they try to go after big names in their industry.
Harry:
Yeah yeah.
Ryan:
It's like ‘No, that's a terrible idea.' You should get your format down, and your technology, and the process before you start getting people that have very little time to waste, who are celebrities or are famous in your business.
Harry:
So jumping right into that, you recently republished your first episode as episode No. 40 with the guy from Rooster Teeth, right?
Ryan:
Yeah, Burnie Burns.
Harry:
Yeah, Burnie Burns. A lot of times, people try to plan out their launch and they probably pick their first 5-6 people that they're able to get recorded, and then they figure out ‘Okay, this is the person I'd want to do first'. Did you give it some thought about who you wanted and why you wanted them as part of your first 5 to 10?
Ryan:
Yeah, I was really lucky to get Burnie, and I didn't want to do a podcast for a lot of years. I was at a lunch with a friend, and just said ‘Hey, I'd love to interview Burnie', and she said ‘He's great, he'd be perfect. I'll introduce you tomorrow.' And it just happened serendipitously. Luck had it that he was coming to LA, because they're based in Austin, Texas, and we met at the YouTube space in Mar Vista, Los Angeles, and they had a big event which was a charity fundraiser called Tubethon, hosted by Shira Lazar of What's Trending. It's actually a really cool event. Every time someone hashtagged #tubethon, a corporate sponsor would give money to an LA homeless shelter.
Harry:
Very nice.
Ryan:
And so Burnie and I connected there and I'm writing a book as well, so he thought I was interviewing him for the book and didn't realize I had a podcast. But then he was really excited when he found out that I did have a podcast, so we went away in the YouTube space. We couldn't find a private room so we found this hallway. If you hear the episode, a lot of doors cling and clack, and I didn't have any microphones, I just set up my Zoom Recorder, and he was the best interview ever. It totally made me look great!
Harry:
That's awesome, that's an auspicious way to start a podcast. And then from there, did you just reach out to all the people that you actually knew that you thought would fit what you thought the topic of your podcast was going to be?
Ryan:
My philosophy with the podcast was to play the hand you're dealt and play to the skills that you have, and the connections to people that you already know. I had been in a company called www.Machinima.com, which is a massive YouTube channel around gaming content, so I knew tons of people in the YouTube space and I knew these emerging creators were going to become super successful business people. I'm writing a book about podcasting, and there's a chapter about finding your first follower and how you need someone to catalyze your movement. Burnie was the first person to endorse me so I had social proof with Burnie, which is so important.
He introduced me to Shira Lazar at the event (Guest Number 2), Taryn Southern, who's a YouTube actress – I met her there, Freddie Wong (Number 6) was because of Burnie. So it was a domino-effect, and it just worked out that way.
Harry:
Yeah, you've had some interesting guests on. I listened to your interview with Tucker Max, and I think I always enjoy Tucker Max interviews.
Ryan:
Well, my friends told me I made him sound very likable.
Harry:
Yeah, well I think now that he's grown up and I guess matured, or whatever you want to call it, that phase of his life as he was alluding to in your interview, doesn't exist anymore. When people corner him at a party and they're like ‘Hey, tell me a story about something that happened 10 years ago', he's like ‘Dude, come on, I'm way past that'. It's funny how I think that the genre of ‘frat-lit' that he started –
Ryan:
Yes.
Harry:
So I heard him on your show and Dave Asprey had him on, and Ari Meisel, I think, had him on as well.
Ryan:
Yeah, he was a funny guest. That's what I love about podcasting – you get to chat with people or meet folks that you would never come across, and you have a reason to actually connect. Also, in the business world, it's great because you get to talk to people that are a lot more successful, and people that are way above your weight class. You get to punch at a very high, heavy-weight division when you're only starting out on your own. Just because you're recording it, they're a lot more interested than they would be if they went to have an informational interview with you.
Harry:
Yeah, I think that's advice I always give to folks. A lot of times, when you have them on the show, you'll find that they're just normal people, right? They just want to tell their story, and you can usually tell within the first 5-10 minutes if you're going to have an engaging conversation with them, if it's going to be relaxed, and your audience is going to hear it too, right? If it sounds stilted and it sounds like you're forcing your way through a list of questions, people are probably going to tune out pretty quickly.
Ryan:
Oh totally! If you're bored, the audience will be bored. If you're laughing, the audience will laugh. And so that's always my Litmus test – if I'm bored, then I try to change the subject as soon as possible.
Harry:
So how do you prevent yourself from being bored if, in fact, you are doing a bit of research into the type of guests that you want to have on your show?
Ryan:
I'm typically not bored. There are moments when I'm bored, but really, I want to interview people that I'm interested in meeting. I'll often get connected through listeners to other potential guests, and I used to think that was a great formula, but then I would interview people that were boring. And so now I have to figure out what to do with some of these people, and it's nothing personal against them, it just didn't work out that way. But for the most part, I've been lucky that the guests I have are really interesting and they tend to open up.
One of my favorite episodes, which came from that YouTube event I went to last year, was this guy Flula, who's a German DJ on YouTube, who essentially got deported from the US back to Germany. This guy made a video about being depressed in Germany with his family, he's from Bavaria, and he ended up getting on the front page of Reddit, and that video got half a million views. That was the catalyst to realize ‘Hey, he wanted to be a YouTube creator'. It's that kind of stuff that you wouldn't get ordinarily from just having conversations day to day, that I find keeps me going, and especially with the podcast. You know how it's brick by brick, getting listeners, getting people to subscribe via email, so stories like that always uplift me.
It's just a fascinating time that we can actually have mini media companies that are out of our suitcases and in our home offices. Sometimes I have my baby daughter screaming in the other room, and I have this guy – I don't know if you listened to the Alan Sepinwall interview?
Harry:
No, not yet.
Ryan:
Oh, it was a great interview. He was on the East Coast and he could only talk at like 7.30am Pacific. So I get up early, my wife takes my daughter out to breakfast, and then I go in my living room, which was my office at that point, and they're starting to cut down trees in the front yard. I'm like ‘Who cuts down trees at 7.30 in the morning?' Then from the tree cutting, I go back into my kitchen right next to my bathroom, and the door's open and the toilet's flowing.
Harry:
That's funny.
Ryan:
It's like pick your poison. Do I want tree sounds in the background, or a toilet from the bathroom? It's that kind of stuff that the audience never hears, and even sometimes we're talking about behind the scenes, and if the person you're interviewing – if they can hear it, they laugh. They understand.
Harry:
I think we're at a point that the more natural it sounds, the better. There's something to be said for the MPR style of podcasts, and I'm a big fan of folks like Roman Mars, and what the folks at StartUp are doing. A lot of people have that as a goal: ‘Man, I've got to have this super clean show that probably has like 5 producers and editors and scripts'. Apparently Serial was a year or two years in the making, I think, before they even started.
Ryan:
Oh totally! And they launched off of This American Life. You and I launched our podcasts on the backs of ourselves.
Harry:
Off of our American lives.
Ryan:
Yeah, our own American lives and our significant others!
Harry:
Yeah, I think when you're touching on building the fan-base one by one, you had an interview with Jeff Ullrich of Earwolf, and I think you touched upon one of the articles that I'm really a fan of – it's that ‘1,000 True Fans' article.
Ryan:
Oh yeah, the Kevin Kelly article.
Harry:
Yeah, it's really good.
Ryan:
About how if you can get 1,000 fans that pay $100 once a year, you can make livable money.
Harry:
Yeah, and I think everyone that's just getting into podcasting, depending on where they came from, and depending on if they've always seen it as a hobby and then someone introduced it to them and they sort of built it up organically, then they know that it's hard work. But if they jumped into one of these famous podcaster programs, they may go into it with different expectations and saying ‘Well, I'm just going to follow this ABC formula and in 6 months I'm going to have 10,000 or 100,000 downloads per episode, and then I'll start making my millions, and then advertisers will come knocking on my door and I'll be set'.
Ryan:
Are you talking about when listeners or podcast creators can join a club or group?
Harry:
Yeah, exactly.
Ryan:
And that's such a shame because I feel like there's a false mythology out there where podcasters think they can jump in and follow a formula, and get a big base of listeners. I don't like people that try to sell that kind of business because it just creates this false sense that this is all so natural. It's not. If you have a podcast base of 40 people and they actually buy your books and they buy your products, that should give you satisfaction. You don't need to be in the Top 10 Business Podcasts in iTunes.
Harry:
It's just a fascinating time. I really think it's exciting. I've been doing it since the beginning of 2014, I think you started in 2014 as well. And obviously there's times when I want to be more regular than I am now, and I think you and Jeff talked about it in terms of having a regular schedule and publishing on a regular basis. We plan on doing that, and then real life kicks in and you're like ‘Oh no, I couldn't record an episode this week for some reason or another'.
Ryan:
It just doesn't happen. Life, business, family get in the way.
Harry:
Yeah.
Ryan:
And I feel like unless you do it full time, or you're getting paid to do it as part of your job, then it's so hard to pull off.
Harry:
So the other interesting guest whose podcast I'm a fan of is Michael Wolf.
Ryan:
Oh, he's great!
Harry:
Yeah. And so I actually started following Michael at the same time I started my podcast, because my podcast – as you know – is Podcast Junkies. I interview other podcasts, so it's already kind of meta itself. Then Michael started having podcasters on the show, and I'm like ‘Wait, he's doing something that I want to do', but he obviously only went at it for a certain period of time, and he's obviously big on technology, and he's got another podcast that he's doing about home electronics.
Ryan:
Yeah, he's gone into other areas like smart home and trying to figure out new technology. He's brilliant because his business is around research, so he publishes research that he actually gets via the podcast.
Harry:
And he writes for Forbes, so I think he's had contact with a lot of different folks. I think he used to write for GigaOM, and that's where he met Mark Cuban, and he just simply made an ask for Mark Cuban, who ended up being on the show.
Ryan:
Yeah, he was brilliant. The best part about that is the bi-product. Michael Wolf came on the podcast, and he posted his episode on his SoundCloud, and his listeners liked it so much they were like ‘Hey, can you actually publish this again on your network?' So he published it and I got 2,000 listens very early on, which I was so thrilled about, because he posted it separately on his SoundCloud channel.
Harry:
Nice, very cool. Yeah, I've had that happen. I had someone who I interviewed for my show. They took our episode, it was so popular that they basically broke it out into a 3-part episode.
Ryan:
Oh really?
Harry:
And put it on their podcast, and they said they were getting feedback left and right. We were just going into depth about a whole range of topics, not all related to podcasting either. It was just like messages from the universe, and needing to follow your calling, and stuff like that. What I thought was one of the best comments was the guy told me that his Mom told him ‘I learned stuff about you I didn't even know, it was cool. I've never heard you on a podcast before being so open'.
Ryan:
Oh, your listeners?
Harry:
Yeah, for that episode.
Ryan:
Oh that's great.

Harry:
The guest's Mom told him that when she heard it.
Ryan:
Oh, the Mom said that. Through your interviewing techniques..
Harry:
Which I thought was a testament to going in-depth with the conversation and on a topic that I enjoy.
Ryan:
Well, speaking about the Universe telling you something – I have been thinking podcasts for years, and it's so hard to execute. I had to actually not have a full-time job to do it. I worked in the start-up world for 7 years in LA, and it was with some really successful companies, and you're married to your job. You're in a start-up, you've got to answer that email on Saturday night, Sunday morning, whatever, and travelling at the drop of a hat. I now consult, but I knew I wouldn't have done it with a full-time job, and so I had to break away.
I've been able to reposition my career, with story-telling being a part of it, which I thought was critical in this day and age – you have to have your own platform creating stories. And some of us write, some of us do podcasts, other have YouTube, but I think that in the era of modern day media moguls – which I'm not saying that I am, but I aspire to be one – you have to book your own gigs and create your own content. You can't wait for someone to come and find you.
Harry:
Yeah, we have to wear all the hats, right? We have to be the show scheduler, the show booker, the show researcher, the website updater, the social media guy, the in-person handshaker – all those things at the same time.
Ryan:
Yeah, I call it the Jay-Z effect. Jay-Z does 50 jobs – he's an executive, he performs, he's married to Bey, he's got so many different hats that he wears, but he does it well.
Harry:
Well, he's at the point now where he probably has top people doing each one of those things for him and he just kind of gives the nod and is like ‘Yeah, do this'.
Ryan:
Yeah, he has a bunch of Chief-of-Staffs. How many Chief-of-Staffs do you have?
Harry:
Uh, counting myself, one.
Ryan:
One? Who is that? You?
Harry:
Yeah.
Ryan:
Yeah. It's a great game though. Do you have an end-game?
Harry:
It's interesting. That's why I really love talking to podcasters, man, because we just go back and forth, everyone's got their own strategy. I've talked to John Lee Dumas, some hugely successful people, and then folks like Dave Jackson, who's been doing it since 2005 or something like that, and Ray Ortega, who just literally were doing it because they loved podcasting. For me, I sort of went into it with the mindset of ‘If I follow this formula, I can monetize it, get advertisers on', but what I've quickly discovered is number 1: It's not that easy, and number 2: It takes work to build your audience. You just have to always work at it. Like you said, if you've got a full-time job or you've got other projects you're working on – even if you were doing it full-time, it would still be a long road.
I think it's important to take the long view for myself, and what I've seen the podcast become is a fantastic networking tool. I've met so many people as a result of either having them on the show, or mentioning that I have a podcast, or being introduced because of someone that I interviewed to someone else for other ventures that I'm working on. I mentioned to you I'm doing a conference, I've got speakers for the conference as a result of the podcast. I don't think you can exactly say what it's going to be when it starts out, but I do know that if you continue at it, it'll turn into something that's beneficial for you in the long-run.
Ryan:
I totally agree. It's like the ROI isn't financial. You're not going to get rich with a podcast. If anything, you may lose money, because you've got to buy equipment, you've got to spend time that you're not making money putting it into the show. But if you can figure out other ways of growing your network and making better business connections – I think that I have been able to get in the room with people that I'll work with in the next few years. People I never would have met without the podcast.
I'm not trying to do a quick deal. That's one thing I've avoided on the podcast is I don't really ask for a lot of favors from the people that I interview, other than give me your time, and if you would share it on social media, great. I'm not trying to get rich quick and try to do quick deals with these people. I'd rather have them a part of my community over the next 5 years than try to do something in the next 6 months that may alienate them.
Harry:
Yeah, I think it's important to treat it as a long-term relationship, and that's something that I always knew in the back of my mind, but after speaking to folks like John Corcoran and I recently read Judy Robinett's book How to be a Power Connector, I think it's called. She's got amazing tips, along the lines of which John talks about. I've actually engaged with her and started a relationship with her just through Twitter and emails. I'm interested in what she says and I respond and I engage and I follow and I comment. People like that. Sometimes those little things go a long way to show people you're interested and people appreciate that and they reply back.
Ryan:
Yeah, I love it. I think the art of the cult email is something that you can't underrate in the podcast world. I've got some amazing guests that have become friends of mine, just because I sent them an email. I said ‘Hey, I like the show, or I like what you're upto', and I think podcasters in general – the big ones at this point – I think we're lucky that we're early in the game. These other big names are still accessible, but I think the more flooded the podcast market gets, the more confusing it will be, and we'll look back and say ‘Oh wow, we interviewed that person a year ago and they've blown up. If we tried to reach them now, they would have all these different handlers and media people'. Any time I get a PR person involved, I know it's not going to work out well.
Harry:
[Laughs] Yeah, you've got to go through so many walls just to get to that person. Getting back to your actual podcast, The Influencer Economy, was that the podcast you always had in mind? You said you'd been thinking about podcasting for a couple of years before you even started. Was that the one that you always wanted to start?
Ryan:
Yeah, without any doubt. I would have done this podcast or no podcast.
Harry:
OKay.
Ryan:
And I brought it to the full when I was at Machinima, and it was essentially a YouTube network for videogamers, and for those that don't know what Machinima is, it's an ESPN-type format where people play Call of Duty or they play Minecraft and do gameplay over it. They make funny animation shorts, or we go to E3 and Comic-Con and gaming conferences and we cover it. So I watched these guys that we had on our network amass hundreds of thousands of dollars creating YouTube videos, playing Call of Duty, living at home with their parents, and sometimes parents would call in and say ‘Why are you sending my kid $50,000 checks?' And we'd say ‘Well, you signed a form'. And they'd go ‘I didn't sign this form, why are you sending my kid money?'.
And we're like ‘Well, he plays Minecraft really well and he has a great voice, and he's got this awesome community of half a million subscribers on YouTube'. I was so fascinated by it, I loved it. These were do-it-yourself entrepreneurs that were creators, and they weren't raising money in Silicon Valley. I felt like that narrative of ‘Hey, you've got to get a $1 billion evaluation for your start-up', or ‘You have to be the next Zuckerberg' or get acquired by Google, or you're a failure, is such a misnomer. You can be a great businessperson and entrepreneur and do really well for yourself, but not try to raise a bunch of venture capital.
Harry:
Do you think that the gamers who were on Machinima knew or would call themselves entrepreneurs, or were they just fans of gaming who happened to be able to be in a position to monetize their hobby?
Ryan:
The first generation fell into it. They didn't know it was going to be an emerging industry worth billions of dollars – they did it because they were fanatic. But now I think the entrepreneurship part of it is almost just part of the package. Most people want to be famous. They want to get subscribers, and YouTubers in general want to get attention, and they want to get notoriety. The entrepreneurship hustle, I think, only certain people have, but I think in general, the first generation of any industry, especially podcast-based – like Mark Merren and Nerdist and Chris Hardwick started, this whole thing didn't even exist as an ecosystem. Now I would consider…Who's your Mt Rushmore of podcasting? Those guys are on mine.
Harry:
Yeah, well I think everyone leaves an honorary space up there for Adam Carolla.
Ryan:
Yup.
Harry:
And then Mark Merren obviously, and you talk about Chris Hardwick. I started out in the entrepreneurial space so I look at people that started back then, like this guy that I interviewed, Dave Jackson's School of Podcasting, Ray Ortega- The Podcasters' Studio, Daniel J. Lewis – Audacity to Podcast, Elsie Escobar – she's the Community Manager at Libsyn.
Ryan:
Ah okay.
Harry:
And she had a yoga podcast in 2006, probably one of the first female yoga podcasters, and so they were in the space as well. When I first starting podcasting, for me, since I was a DJ, podcasting equated to music. It was just DJs with their 60-minute sets and for me, that's a podcast. It was only until I had an app that was for DJs that I wanted to get a podcast and when I started listening to podcasts. The whole Pat Flynn – John Lee Dumas world opened up and I'm like ‘Wow, what's going on here?'
Now that you're immersed in it, it seems like everyone's a podcaster, obviously, but it's a very small percentage. We talk to them all the time, so it seems like we run into them everywhere we go.
Ryan:
I think there's a stat that 70% of podcasters get to episode 10. It's either 70 or 80%.
Harry:
Yeah, I heard it was 7%, actually.
Ryan:
7%, so we're ahead of the game. What kind of DJ were you?
Harry:
I still do electronic music, like house music. I grew up in New York, so I literally grew up around the time that house music started and it was just a fantastic time to be around New York City and actually go to the clubs and check out all these DJs that are like world-famous now.
Ryan:
Yeah. And now that industry's blown up.
Harry:
I think I feel like I have to clarify it sometimes. I like electronic music, but I hate EDM.
Ryan:
Yeah, there's a big difference.
Harry:
And so EDM is like the pyrotechnics and the super repetitive monotonous beats and airhorns and everything that's not soulful dance music.
Ryan:
Who are some of your favorite artists?
Harry:
I'm leaning more into the techno side now, so I listen to folks like Tale of Us, Maceo Plex, classics like DJ Sneak, Derrick Carter, Mark Farina. I just grew up around those folks and anything that they play, I'm always there to see them.
Ryan:
What's your take on the iPod mix for the DJ? Do you actually have turn-tables?
Harry:
I do. I grew up and I learned on Technics 1200s and I actually still have them.
Ryan:
And so what do you think of DJs that don't have turntables?
Harry:
You could probably see them back..
Ryan:
Oh dude, look at that record collection!
Harry:
Yeah, I've got my vinyl there too.
Ryan:
You're so Silver Lake. You get out of the airport, they move you to Silver Lake, they give you a pair of Chuck Taylor's, skinny black jeans and then a crate of records.
Harry:
And a really really strong coffee.
Ryan:
And you have to have your favorite micro-brewed coffee. Oh, cold coffee.
Harry:
What I haven't done is grown out this super beard.
Ryan:
You're only a few months away. I see it.
Harry:
No, this is as much as it gets. It's funny because I see them walking down the streets and it's getting warmer here, it was like 80 degrees yesterday, and I'm like ‘Isn't that beard fucking hot?'
Ryan:
Yeah! It's all about the look, you know. These guys can suffer through the hot weather.
Harry:
They did fantastic take on the barristers, and apparently they were like meat in the basement of a coffee shop and they wore just like typical suspenders, old-school shirts and twirly mustaches.
Ryan:
A monocle? You've got to have a monocle if you live in Silver Lake. Yeah, so when I podcasted for the first time, I think I just had no idea what I was doing. Now do you find that everyone now has a big podcast launch strategy?
Harry:
I think people feel like they need to because, like I said, it probably depends through which door they entered. If they joined these programs, that's what they're teaching them.
Ryan:
Do you like the programs?
Harry:
I was in Podcasters' Paradise at the start, so I learned a lot in the beginning. But what happens is that the community grows, you have new people coming in and they're just like ‘Hey, how's my artwork?' And I'm like ‘Oh, I want to have discussions about growth'. You grow out of it, and then you find your community elsewhere. A lot of my guests came from that community. I went to Podcast Movement, I met really cool people there and those people, those connections that I made, ended up being on the show, but like I said, I have a wide variety of interests. I love Joe Rogan, I love comedy podcasts, I love music podcasts.
Right now, I've got a pretty wide open space because it's podcasters, right? I could literally interview any one of the – probably – 10; I don't know if we're in the hundreds of thousands of podcasters at this point now, but I try to stay with people that I've either met, or who've reached out so at least I have some back story. Like I said, I want to talk to interesting people and a lot of times, you won't know that going in cold.
Ryan:
Are you married?
Harry:
I am.
Ryan:
Do you think your marriage has questionable moments because of your podcasting habits? I would say that mine does.
Harry:
Yeah, I heard that episode where you said ‘Hey guys, I had to squeeze in' (I forget which one it was), but you were like ‘I had to squeeze it in and my wife's really mad at me but..'
Ryan:
Oh yeah, that was great, it was a holiday party. My wife's from North Carolina so we went back there for Christmas and I had to record the intro because it was about Serial, so I had this guy, Ty Hildenbrandt on, who's now a friend of mine, who I reached out to via a cold email. He came on and I did the intro, because Serial had just ended and you can't have the Serial wrap-up podcast and talking about the media ramifications, so I was like ‘Yeah, my wife is really mad at me, I've got to make this short'.
It definitely gets in the way because she loves that I do it and she knows that I need to do it, but she doesn't like me working 60 hours a week on everything. It's just funny that she has this perspective that she's a firm believer in what I do, but then she's like ‘Hey..'. And I have a kid now, right, so she's like ‘You've got to be with our daughter at 7 o clock at night'.
Harry:
Okay, it's funny. Yeah, I mean, we have no kids yet so thankfully, she's been very supportive. I think when they see that it's something that you're passionate about and it really lights you up when you talk about it, then at some point they get tired of you talking about it and they're like ‘Alright, I don't want to hear about any more podcasting stories'. There's a limit to that, but they see it's something that you really get excited about and it's fun for you. I've got my whole set-up in my office here, so she knows that when I'm in here, she gives me space. I'll say I'm talking to a guest or I've got to record some intros, so I think you just have to over-communicate in that case.
Ryan:
Does she listen to your show?
Harry:
She's listened on occasion and she's had some interesting comments. [Laughs]
Ryan:
Yeah.
Harry:
But it's funny because I think a lot of it is inside stuff. I talk to podcasters and we make all these jokes about other podcasts or things of that nature, and if you don't listen to podcasts regularly and you don't know the names, it could get extremely boring.
Ryan:
So meta.
Harry:
[Laughs]. So meta. There were a couple where it was, interestingly enough, not about podcasting, and I was just getting into more motivational stuff with one of the guests, the brothers from SatoriPrime, and she really enjoyed that one. I think she picks and chooses a couple of them to hear, but if I had to bet whether or not she's listened to every single one, I would say not.
Ryan:
Oh yeah, my wife listens to nary a podcast, and she still subscribes on iTunes, but they were taking up all this memory because she had everyone downloaded, that we just had to get rid of them. Same with my Mom. My Mom thinks it's a foreign language. She's super-supportive and she likes hearing about it, and so I don't know, it's just a funny thing. Podcasting within this community that we're in, it can get so drilled down and specific that for me, I'm always trying to broaden up my episodes. Sometimes I get 5 minutes in and someone's told me this really fascinating thing and I'm like ‘No-one's going to know what this guy's talking about', so I have to bring it back out and ask a really dumb question like ‘How do you explain what you do if my Mom was listening?'
Harry:
Yeah, exactly. Well, I was going to ask you about Machinima, but then you actually graciously explained what Machinima was, because a lot of people wouldn't even know what that is. It's enough that we're talking about podcasting and the intricacies and ins and out and all the pain-points of podcasting, but then you start talking about a whole other world, which I'm sure is a world in and of itself, right?
Ryan:
Yeah. Actually, the world of itself, though – I'm a lot better interview subject, I think (I don't want to get too far ahead of myself), but having the privilege of interviewing really good interviewees, like Willie Geist from the Today show, who's on the air and interviews everyone. He was so good at breaking it down. We were talking about his book and I was getting into a question, but he was like ‘I talked about this before, but then I wrote this book, and it's called ‘Good Talk, Dad” and he was so good at just distilling the core of what he was thinking to let the listener in.
I have this episode coming up with Tom Merritt, who hosted Daily Tech Podcast and used to be part of Leo Laporte's This Week in Technology Start-ups. He was telling me that in his view, his listener is the third audience member. He has a guest, and himself, and then the listener. He was saying it more because they're really smart in the comments, but for me, I think the listener is the third person I'm telling the story to. I have to figure out how to articulate what we're doing, and I also don't want to have to go back and edit.
Harry:
Yeah, I've been trying to do these in one shot now, especially since I'm not doing them myself now. I try to make it as easier for my editor as possible, and I'm cognizant of that and I'm even speaking more slowly or more deliberately, and I'm even conscious of when I'm about to either clear my throat or throw in an um or an ah because you really hear those clearly when you're editing later and you're like ‘Wow, I really said it that much?'
Ryan:
Yeah, or when you say ‘like'. I said ‘like' once in this episode, and I couldn't believe it.
Harry:
Yeah, but your point about keeping a focus on the listener is really important because Dave Jackson actually talked about this – he said he puts a picture of his avatar. In entrepreneurial space, they talk about your avatar, your ideal guest, who is he? His name is Johnny, he's 26, he's married, he has two kids, he has a dog, his wife works here, blah blah blah. So they hone down so laser-focused on their avatar, and what he does is he says he has a picture of his avatar on his wall, and he looks at that picture while he's doing the podcasts. A lot of what he does is he teaches people tips on podcasting, so a lot of his shows are solo. He basically focuses on the person and is like ‘Hey, I'm talking to you today and these are the tips I want to give you', and I imagine it colors his message and makes it feel more personable for the audience.
Ryan:
And thinking about that person listening.
Harry:
Exactly.
Ryan:
Do you ever listen to shows and think that you're asking questions for yourself, and then you realize that you've stopped asking for the listeners?
Harry:
Yeah. Well, I think if the listener is interested in, or is a fan of your show, they almost – I'm not going to say they take on your mindset, but they know what they're going to get when they're listening to you. So if they've listened to your show enough times, they know who Ryan Williams is and they start to get your sense of humor, they start to get a flow for how you ask questions, a flow for the things that you enjoy. They pick up on instances where you go deep with a guest and where you kind of fast-forward and you're like ‘Oh, that's not something that I want to talk about too much'. I'm not going to say they adopt your persona, but they're like ‘Okay, Ryan Williams, he's into sports or he knows a lot about gaming', and things like that. They sort of know when you have an ideal guest on how you're going to structure your questions, and I think they probably become one of your true fans because they're sticking around.
Ryan:
Yeah, I have this great story that I'm so happy about. This guy said ‘I really like your show, but you interrupt your guests'. So this guy emails me this out of the blue, he's like ‘I like your show, but you interrupt your guests. Fix it.'
So I was like ‘Okay'. I took a step back and I was like ‘I'm not going to write an emotional response'. What's happening here is that this guy is actually complimenting me because he's emailing me.
Harry:
Exactly.
Ryan:
He gives a crap. I was like ‘How can I help this guy understand that I'm actually aware of what he says. I may not be able to ever fix it, but I'm listening'. So I wrote him back and said ‘Thanks for the feedback, which episodes are you talking about? I'm actually working on that.' I tried to tell him that I get it. I actually wasn't really working on it, but I was aware of people potentially thinking that. So he says to me ‘Oh, it was this one episode with Harrison Barnes, but I've listened to ten episodes since and because you got back to me so quickly, I told people in my office about your show'.
So then the guy emailed me a bunch of times afterwards and he said he bought three books because of the podcast.
Harry:
Nice.
Ryan:
So it was one of these moments where it's like even the worst support, unless it's someone who's just trolling you, if someone takes the time to email a negative piece of feedback, they are taking the time to email you.
Harry:
I think there's some sort of phenomenon that's somewhat related to people when they find new bands, and when they really get in on the ground floor, and they're just so proud of the fact that they saw this Aerosmith in the basement at Johnny's Pub, or whatever it was. It's like ‘I was there when..', and there's an aspect of that with podcasts because there's just so many, right? There's no way that everyone is going to be a fan of every podcast out there, because you just literally don't have the time to listen to them all, to listen to them on a regular basis, really get a feel for the 20-30-40 episodes it takes to understand whether it's something you like or not. I've outgrown podcasts, and I just have a limited time.
I think you were having a conversation with someone, I think it was the guy from Earwolf, about whether he listens to podcasts and he just said that he didn't have the time anymore. We're so focused on making sure that the ones we do listen to are worth our time.
Ryan:
Right.
Harry:
And so the people who do listen, they're at that inflection point now and saying ‘Is Ryan someone I'm going to keep listening to, because my time is precious.'
Ryan:
Yeah.
Harry:
‘Should I keep listening to him as one of the 10 podcasts I listen to regularly?'
Ryan:
Yeah, do you listen to a lot? I've stopped. Sometimes it gets too meta. I'm just like way involved with my podcast, other people's podcasts. Unless I'm doing research for a guest, I have to just listen to podcasts that aren't business and just completely check out.
Harry:
Yeah, I've narrowed it down tremendously. I've got a whole slew of podcast-related podcasts that I listen to, just to hear what's going on with the industry, so to speak, and to see if there's anything cool that people are doing from a marketing perspective, any cool tools etc. That's where I hear about some of the new stuff that's coming out, where I heard about Patrion, and another podcasting tool that plugs into Skype and records lossless audio now. All these new companies are really making a name for themselves. A company like Call Recorder, before podcasting, was probably just known from people that wanted to record a Skype conversation.
Ryan:
Right.
Harry:
But now everyone who's Skyping knows that you have to use either Pamela for Windows or Call Recorder for Macs. They've literally probably built their business now off of podcasting.
Ryan:
Yeah, exactly. It's like all these tools are being made monetizable.
Harry:
So yeah, I listen to that, and then Tim Ferris's podcast is great. I just pick and choose now people who I find interesting. I think it's a lot to do with an interesting host, because if they just ramble on and each podcast episode starts to sound the same, or like it's an assembly line that they're pushing through, then I lose interest really quick.
Ryan:
What comedy podcasts do you like?
Harry:
Joe Rogan's Duncan Trussell is hilarious.
Ryan:
Who's that?
Harry:
Duncan Trussell is an LA-based comedian. Interestingly enough, we have the same barber. I was telling my barber ‘I like podcasting', and he was like ‘Do you know Duncan Trussell?' I was like ‘Yeah', and he was like ‘Oh, he comes in here'.
Ryan:
It's funny, I have a number of things like that where you talk to someone about podcasting, like ‘Oh, I love this guy'. Like this guy Greg Fitzsimmons, he's a podcaster and I was like looking at a school for my kid, and they said ‘Oh yeah, Greg Fitzsimmons, his kid went here.' I guess it's like an exclusive club.
Harry:
Yeah, that's funny.
Ryan:
Do you think that you'll be podcasting in 5 years?
Harry:
I definitely think so. Especially with the way I'm taking my show – it's more of like a passion project, and there's so many interesting people jumping in and there's probably a ton of people that are not podcasting that you're fans of, and a year from now, are going to have a podcast. From my perspective, since I talk to podcasters, I always feel there's someone I could have a conversation with. I probably have enough material to literally put out a 7-day a week podcast, but it's not in me, I don't have the time and I just think it would burn me out and burn the audience out if I'm just hammering through a bunch of rote interviews.
Ryan:
Yeah, I agree. I probably have 10 saved up right now. I'd love to binge and put them all out, but there's no point. You've got to pace yourself.
Harry:
I think so. Are you on a regular schedule?
Ryan:
No, they're as needed or as they come up. I often go to events where I meet people that are interesting and then podcasts come. I think people that try to structure this as much as they can – I think it's just so hard.
Harry:
It is.
Ryan:
People think that they can work on it if they do Mondays and Wednesdays from 1-4 – it's not like that. Other stuff comes in that you've got to make money from, and that prioritizes your podcast much further down on the list.
Harry:
So having done this for about a year, is it too short of a time, or have you picked up some insights or some ‘aha' moments, just on podcasting in general from when you started?
Ryan:
Yeah. What I have realized, and in the Jeff Ullrich interview from Earwolf, he was great because he was saying there's no silver bullet. There's a lot of small wood bullets, but you can't just think your podcast is overnight going to be a massive hit. So for me, the little things have kept me going – like getting an email from a listener, right? Or even getting an email from a friend who listened. Getting people to share it on Facebook and Twitter that I didn't even know. That kind of stuff kept me going. The tips, I would say – actually my business is working with companies and brands and entrepreneurs to launch their podcasts.
Harry:
Okay.
Ryan:
And I think that for me, what I didn't do, is I wish I would have made a shorter podcast name. But I was so set on The Influencer Economy, and then now I call it Stories from the Influencer Economy, but I wish I'd had a three or four syllable name. When you think of ‘Rooster Teeth', ‘Rocket Jump', ‘Nerdist', ‘WTF' – I wish I had a harder syllable, shorter name.
Harry:
‘Podcast Junkies'. [Laughs]
Ryan:
Yeah. ‘Junkies' is a much better word than ‘Economy', but now that I have it, I wouldn't go back and change a thing. For me, I think podcasting is one platform, and you have to grow others and use it as a vehicle.
Harry:
Yeah, exactly.
Ryan:
I have a book that I'm working on. It's a big win, I'm actually finishing my book proposal this week.
Harry:
Congratulations.
Ryan:
Thank you. My wife is the final set of eyes that will be on it. I actually worked on it just before this Skype, and it's also called The Influencer Economy. I wanted very much to have a consistent brand and voice, and so in the book proposal, I'm writing that I have this many shows, and these are my guests, and my guests are actually profiled in the book. And if you want to hear more in-depth conversations with some of my book subjects, go to my website, and you can hear the full interview with Burnie Burns.
Harry:
It's funny because I actually did something similar, and it's the concept of repurposing your content.
Ryan:
Right. Nothing wrong with it.
Harry:
I took the first 25 interviews and I just finished up a first draft. It's called ‘Around the Podcast Campfire', and it's interviews with 25 of the most interesting podcasters. I grouped them into subject areas as the chapters, and then pulled tidbits out for each chapter. That's been interesting, and it's fun to read through them again and to just listen. A lot of times, you listen to an interview so fast through your earbuds and you get the gist of it, but there's nothing like actually reading the words on a piece of paper. The 1-2 bit really helps the idea sink in.
Ryan:
So do you transcribe your podcasts?
Harry:
I do have them transcribed, yeah.
Ryan:
What service do you use?
Harry:
I use a company called Podfly.
Ryan:
Okay, and how much is it?
Harry:
Podfly, I think they're about $100 and… It's all one price, so I think it's like $100 an episode, but it's an all-inclusive price. They have a monthly charge where they do a bare-bones editing for you, and then as you add the other services, it's a la carte.
Ryan:
Oh okay.
Harry:
Yeah. They're going to be at – I don't know if you're planning on going to any of the conferences, but there's New Media Expo and there's Podcast Movement, which are two of the big ones for podcasting.
Ryan:
I'd like to go to one of them.
Harry:
I would go to Podcast Movement. They're going to have Sarah Speer from Serial – I always forget her name.
Ryan:
Sarah Koenig.
Harry:
Sarah Koenig. I don't know why I thought Speer. Aisha Tyler and Roman Mars as well.
Ryan:
Did you listen to Serial?
Harry:
I actually am one of the few people who has not.
Ryan:
Are you kidding me? You live in Silver Lake and you haven't listened to Serial?
Harry:
That just proves I'm not an uber hipster.
Ryan:
Yeah.
Harry:
I think what I'm doing is waiting for a time when I can just binge-listen.
Ryan:
I was so addicted to it.
Harry:
[Laughs]
Ryan:
I woke up on Thursdays mornings and would listen to it right away. I would take my kid on a walk for an extra amount of time. It was so compelling, I loved it. Do you watch a lot of TV? I binge with shows like Mad Men and Breaking Bad and The Wire.
Harry:
Yeah, we've narrowed down our TV watching, but it was Breaking Bad, and now it's Walking Dead. That's about it.
Ryan:
You're not watching Better Call Saul?
Harry:
I am watching Better Call Saul. My wife refuses to give in to that.
Ryan:
What?
Harry:
I think it was really slow to start and she was like ‘Eh..'
Ryan:
It's so good!
Harry:
Breaking Bad had me from the pilot episode.
Ryan:
Breaking Bad, yeah, epic. It blows your mind. I had nightmares after some episodes – when those twins got involved..My wife and I woke up one day and we'd both had separate nightmares after watching, so we'd have to watch a show like Modern Family after Breaking Bad and before sleep.
Harry:
Yeah, it got super dark, man. No-one has ever taken a character and I think Vince Gilligan said ‘From Mr Chips to Scarface', I think that's always the line.
Ryan:
Oh yeah, that's a great metaphor.
Harry:
And that's exactly what happened. So I want to be respectful of your time. One of the things I wanted to ask, and something I'm always curious of when I talk to other podcasters, is do you think you have a differentiating skill in interviewing? Or in putting your show together? Or is it something you're cognizant of?
Ryan:
I think if I have one differentiating skill, it has to do with connecting with the guest, which I think is separate from connecting with the audience. I'm working on the audience part – I need to get better with it, and with my intros especially. I think I connect with guests really well, and I feel like I get pretty good guests and I can connect not only to them, but also with them when we talk.
Harry:
Yeah.
Ryan:
I feel like I can get very similar conversations from different types of people, where we talk about overlapping things. For instance, I can talk to Freddie Wong who's a big YouTube creator, and that's so different from talking to a sports podcaster like Ty Hildenbrandt, or Jordan from Art of Charm.
And so I think over time, I can get people to open up, and I have a style. I'm like yourself where the agenda is evolving and I have usually three things I want to talk to people about, but I take my work so seriously, but the process of working and hosting a podcast, I don't. So I try to make people feel at ease by making fun of myself or taking light or being self-deprecating about a situation. In life, I'm always connecting with people and networking. We've talked on the phone probably for about a half hour before this happened. I'm willing to give people a half-hour of my time continually, if I think I can help them or they can help me, and I feel like that kind of energy comes through in the podcast.
Harry:
It's a sincerity, right? You can tell when two people are having a sincere conversation – they're generally interested in what the other has to say, and it's just human nature that people want to hear or listen to those types of conversations.
Ryan:
Exactly. I try to make the intros and the first five minutes of the podcast about nothing. I don't always jump right in, unless I'm pressed for time, because I think you have to warm up. I don't know if you've experienced this, but sometimes if I don't do a pre-call or talk to someone, and we just jump into the podcast, the first ten minutes are sometimes junk.
Harry:
Yeah.
Ryan:
It's like you have to get to know them and then you finally reach a moment where you're like ‘Aha, we've now hit it', and then you have to not even include the first ten minutes and you've almost wasted the recording time.
Harry:
Yeah, exactly. It's that warm-up time, and with each guest it's different. That's why I continue to put a bit more effort into deciding who's going to be on the show. A lot of people have sent me names, a lot of people have said I'll be on your show – I have no idea who this person is. You run a risk of just having a boring conversation. I think for me, a podcast episode is such a precious commodity that I think that's why I just tend to treat each one like its own special jewel, if you will. And I want to make sure that each one could stand alone.
Ryan:
And make them evergreen so people can come back in three or four years. Do you respond well when people email you out of the blue to come on your show?
Harry:
I've had a couple of people ask me – more people ask me to be on a show they have, and right now I'm not turning down anything. I remember when I was asking people to be on my show, so I tend to accept a lot of those. I haven't had too many people asking me to be on the show because I think what's been happening is that I just get referrals from friends or people that I've had on the show myself, and that's enough for now.
Ryan:
Yeah, people have emailed me saying ‘Hey, I want to come on your show', and I've never accepted one.
Harry:
Yeah, because you don't know them from Jane or Joe.
Ryan:
No, and I know they've sent out 25 of the same emails.
Harry:
Yeah, it's blasted templated email. I jumped into Reddit the other day, and I was like ‘Oh, I just want to occasionally stick my head in there because I have a Podcast Junkies login. I asked ‘Ask me anything about podcasting', and it opened up a floodgate there and you have like 10 people saying ‘Oh, I want to be on your show', and now I have people who I'm interested in, so I'm going to take the time to listen to their shows and see if there's any people who are serious about it. There are people, like you said, that ask to be on your show, and then five episodes later, they're gone and you're like ‘Oh, okay, that was a waste of time'.
Ryan:
Yeah, I think John Corcoran said the rule is that if someone has 10 episodes, then he'll go on it.
Harry:
Yeah, and I think that makes sense.
Ryan:
So did you do an ‘Ask me anything' that you just jumped in?
Harry:
Yeah, I just jumped in. It wasn't an official ‘Ask me anything', but I then realized after the fact that when I said ‘Ask me whatever you want', I guess that's the same thing. Yeah, some people were asking some stuff about podcasting. You always think that everyone knows everything that there is to know and you just forget that we're in this super tiny bubble of podcasters. It's podcasters, and then the rest of the world who has no idea what that world even means. We see it in our own families and friends, right?
Ryan:
So do you go into podcasting sub-Reddit?
Harry:
Yeah, one of the podcasting sub-Reddits.
Ryan:
I'm going to try that, that sounds like fun.
Harry:
I'll send you the link to the one.
Ryan:
I'm very curious, I want to check it out. I feel like Reddit in general is so random. It's like speed-dating on crack.
Harry:
What was interesting is that I got linked in to a couple of interviews of guys that have got big followings, and one was about comic books, and I think each episode was dedicated to a specific comic book episode. I thought it was interesting, so now I've got some more podcast homework. But what it might do, and this is always refreshing, is just open me up to a whole new window of podcasters that are just as interesting and just as engaging, and would be just as much fun to talk to as the people that I've spoken to up until now.
Ryan:
Yeah, I like it.
Harry:
So last question: What has got you excited about podcasting in the upcoming year?
Ryan:
I'm excited for my own projects, and to get this damn book out. The goal is for the Fall for it to rise up. It's 40 chapters, and 30 of the people I'm profiling are actually from the podcast. I'm very curious and excited to see if this could be a book that is potentially based off a podcast. I haven't really heard many of those things. I've never heard anyone do this before. I'm sure it has been done, but I think it would be really cool if this works, and that somehow a model of moving forward is like why would you just go and interview people for a book and not make content out of it? What's the point in meeting Bill Gates and doing a 30-minute interview that doesn't go on the web if it's for your book? It seems like it's a waste of time, and an opportunity to not only put content out there and give value to people, but also market your book, build an audience.
You can't have a book just pop out – as you know, any project now, you drop it and it won't go anywhere. You have to have a community early behind it. So I think for authors that want to publish books, starting a podcast could be a good way to get your IP out there and some of your ideas to build an audience.
Harry:
And that's something you and Tucker Max were talking about. What he said was important, and it's to separate the physical act of writing from the actual production of a book. You don't need to actually put physical pen to paper, and that's the only way you can become a writer. The book comes from the ideas in your head, so whether those ideas come out because of you writing them, or you narrate them to someone like Tucker's publishing company, at the end of the day, it's still your book and they're still your ideas.
Ryan:
Right, and so you've just got to get them out as best you can. I'm a much better interviewer and talker than I am a writer.
Harry:
Yeah, I've been doing that a lot more lately. Even just little things like text messages, notes to myself – I've been using Siri like crazy. A lot of times, you'll just be surprised how fast you can get the idea out of your head when you're just speaking it.
Ryan:
What's your answer to that question?
Harry:
What was that?
Ryan:
What's your answer to the question? What do you think is interesting about podcasting coming up?
Harry:
I think the ability to speak to people who you admire, and we can get so close to these folks, and I think you alluded to earlier that it's a small window, and it's closing rapidly because everyone's figuring it out, but I still think we have probably 12-18 months of time where with enough gusto, we can go after who we want to and we're probably only one or two degrees of separation away from that person because everyone's exciting about the space, everyone wants to be on a podcast, everyone is starting to figure out what they are and people who have been doing it for a while, like the Chris Hardwicks and the Mark Merrens and Adam Carollas – they're opening the doorways and allowing folks like us to start the conversation.
Ryan:
Yup. So you think we have a good year, year and a half, and then it's going to be like another freaking thing? Like another Twitter, another medium that everyone's on and people ruin it.
Harry:
I was actually going to try a new tool for this interview, but I couldn't figure out how to get it to work. It's called Meerkat, I don't know if you've heard about it.
Ryan:
Oh yeah, I love Meerkat.
Harry:
So I was going to say ‘Oh okay, I'm live interviewing Ryan', but then I realized it was just going to be me talking, because your audio wouldn't come through.
Ryan:
It's just a live stream on your side.
Harry:
And then that would have been kind of monotonous. So I think there's a technical mic connection thing where the audio gets cut out and you can actually hear it, but it won't cause that feedback loop. I don't know what the technical term is for that, but I've seen people to it. I've seen people be on interviews with no headphones, and the speaker's coming out and they're not getting that feedback.
Ryan:
Okay.
Harry:
Mix Minus, I think it's called.
Ryan:
Oh okay. I like the live stream idea.
Harry:
Live stream would be cool.
Ryan:
And some real-time questions.
Harry:
Yeah, that would be cool. I've seen a couple of people test that out, so I'll be digging into that a little bit more. For now they'll probably just have to watch me stroll down to my coffee shop and buy my espresso.
Ryan:
While curling your mustache.
Harry:
Curling my mustache.
Ryan:
And your favorite micro-brewed cold coffee.
Harry:
Craft beer.
Ryan:
While you're drinking your craft beer and adjusting your monocle.
Harry:
Yeah, and in skinny jeans. And riding my unicycle.
Ryan:
Oh, you would kill a unicycle!
Harry:
Ryan, thanks so much for coming on. It's so funny the way things work that we literally met and spoke a couple of weeks ago, or last week maybe even, and it was because of just connections we had in common through Esprit, so a shout out to Esprit – and also John Corcoran for helping connect us.
Ryan:
Yeah, absolutely, thanks for having me on.
Harry:
What's the best way for people to track you down?
Ryan:
You can hit me up at www.InfluencerEconomy.com or on Twitter at @RyanJWill, and if you look up Influencer Economy on iTunes, you can subscribe there.
Harry:
And then we can say if you've made it this far into the interview, just send a Tweet out to either Ryan or myself and just say ‘I've been influenced'.
Ryan:
‘I've been influenced', exactly.
Harry:
Give that a shot. Alright, thanks, have a fantastic week.
Ryan:
Likewise. You too.

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