Ari Meisel Interview Transcription
Denny Krahe Interview Transcription

Harry Duran:
Podcast Junkies episode 31. In case you missed it last week, I did my standard recap of the year in review and it was interesting, because it was my way of going back and seeing just how it started. It was April of 2014. So, I go into detail of all the guests and the experiences I had over the past, so it's an interesting trip down memory lane and it seems like it was a long time ago, but in fact it wasn't. It hasn't even been a year, so I imagine there's a lot more good stories and good interviews to come.

So, I'm pretty excited. Check that out if you haven't, it's my 30th episode and it's how I kicked off the year. I'm looking to get back on track with the interviews. I've got already three in the can and this weeks is a great way to start off the year. It's Jordan Harbinger from the Art of Charm and Jordan has been running his podcast close to 7 years. He's up to to episode 340-350 and it originally started out as a relationship/dating, how to have better conversations with the opposite sex type of show, how to get guys out of their comfort zone, couching around that topic, and he's also built a business around that as well, but what he's found he's broaden the variety of guests he's had on and he's had the likes of Chris Ryan on the show. He just had Ben Greenfield from Been Greenfield fitness.

So, he's getting a range of guests that are covering a bunch of topics and it's not just that narrow topic of relationships or dating or sex or things like that. I think he's demonstrating his skill as an interviewer by probing deep into what makes these folks ticked and I'm always, always entertained by his interviews, because I feel like he does his research and the conversations are always in depth and I really like where they go and he's had some of my favorites. He spoke to John Corcoran as well. He recently had Judy Robinett from the Power of Networking, which was a fascinating interview as well. Like I said, there's tons on there. I highly recommend you check it out.

Jordan's got a fantastic story. He's with worked in legal firms, he's traveled aboard, he speaks multiple languages, and he's always been on the mission to rediscover himself and get himself out of his own head and change the person he was when he was younger. A big, big change from the person he is now and very successful business man and he's running a 7-figure business with the Art of Charm and he's just firing on all cylinders, so we had a fantastic conversation and I think you'll enjoy it.

This episode is brought to you by ProdConf. ProdConf is one day productivity intensive. It's going to be held in downtown Los Angeles on May 9th and I'm really excited about this program that I've put together. We've had the benefit of talking to a lot of interesting, a lot of successful, and very productive folks over the course of the past year as the result of the podcast, as the result of going to conferences, and as a result of going to local meet ups and engaging with folks on a regular basis.

So, I've taken 8 of the smartest people, most productive people, most successful folks, and great speakers that I've come across and know and am very privileged to call a friend and have invited them to downtown Los Angeles to take part in this intensive for your benefit, so get the details on the site. I made an easy domain for you, it's DowntownProductivity.com. I'd love to see you there if you are running successful business and you're looking to take it to the next business, if you're successful at your career, at your business, and you wanna get more ideas, tips, and more suggestions on how to change your mindset and take that productivity to allow you to be more productive in your business and in your personal life and maybe even go out and venture out on your own and start your own entrepreneurial journey or if you're started your entrepreneurial journey and you stagnated for a bit, but you realized the importance of surrounding yourself with like minded folks with folks who are kicking ass and folks who really know what they're doing because they've been in the trenches and have demonstrated the fact that they can be successful.

So, I personally love to surround myself with those people. I've been making a point to do that on a more consistent basis and 2015 is going to be no different. So, I'm super excited about this event. I can't wait to see you guys there. Hopefully you can sign up, hopefully you can make it. It's going to be very small, very intimate, probably no more than 150-200 people there and it's one day for the first annual and I look to have this be one of many that I'm going to kick off on a regular basis. So, DowntownProductivity.com for more details. Okay, now on to the interview with Jordan Harbinger.

So, Jordan Harbinger thanks for joining us on Podcast Junkies.

Jordan Harbinger:
Thank you for having me. I appreciate the opportunity.

Harry:
Yeah, couple of technical difficulties prior to starting up, but I'm sure with 300 plus episodes in the can you've had your fair share of technical SNAFUs.

Jordan:
Yeah, mostly my fault, really. Looking at it, yeah, of course you've had the call recorder cash and then you restart it. I've had that happen. I've had other things happen where your computer just goes into the gray screen back in the GarageBand days when I was like, podcasts? What's that? Oh, you need all of this external stuff, because microphones and computers don't talk to each other. Now, we've kind of come full cycle where there's this whole USB mic phase and then it was like, ahh, but if you really want good stuff you still have to go back to XLR cables and an air phase, but now they've actually figured out a way to make an interface more than tin-can with some wires sticking out at the back of it.

So, now you've got good rack mountable or even desktop focused right type interfaces that also cause massive problems, because Skype is not built for multiple mics on a show type scenario. That's my current pain in my you know what.

Harry:
Yeah. Oh, it's not a peachy show.

Jordan:
That's my current pain in the dick, because just so I know who I am offending.

Harry:
Well, I've heard you on previous shows, so I figured you like to speak freely, so I might as well let you.

Jordan:
Yeah, I try not to be like totally ridiculous about it, but my own show, I don't go, oh shucks. So, you've got your Skype where it only recognizes channel one as the microphone, because they weren't expecting a whole round table of people to be talking on one Skype channel. They just want you to get a group Skype account, because they figure if you're in the same room, you're not using Skype. So, wah. Whatever, people smarter than me have already figure that out. I just need to read the article and have somebody smarter than me set it up.

Harry:
Have you had the podcasters nightmare where you've had this fantastic interview and then you go back and you lost your recording?

Jordan:
Yeah, where it's like one side of the conversation. It's usually you going, ummhmm, ohh, and this is awesome, I can't wait to release this, and 5 minutes of silence. I've had that happen.

Harry:
That's a tail between the legs phone call or email back to the guest.

Jordan:
That's what you say is, you're never going to believe this, my external hard drive crashed. This is terrible. I lost a ton of data, unfortunately yours was in the mix. So, if anybody out there gets that from me, it's because I did something stupid. Let's be honest, a solid state hard drive crashing, unlikely. Also, I save everything to my laptop, so it's not like..I mean, if I say that to you it's probably because I screwed up somewhere and I'm lying because I'm embarrassed.

Harry:
When did you..I know you got a lot of help with folks helping you with the show, scheduling, some editing, the production. When did you hand over the reins on that?

Jordan:
Yeah, when did I hand over the reins…You know what, I remember just a few years ago saying things like, I'm never going to be able to hand over the editing to the show, that's largely art. I like silences the way they are. I edit out certain words, that I maintain the image of the brand, if I make a really corny joke, like, aside from the ones I normally make, that might get clipped out or sirens and then I had an engineer, an audio engineer in the UK. His name is Jason and he's still working with me. A few years ago he was like, listen, I'm a pro audio engineer, I would love to help master the show and I was like, I got this. I don't need your help.

He's like, just send me one and let me know what you think. I sent him one of my already edited shows and it came back way better, I mean it was just..because he was just originally just mastering, not editing, and it was just unbelievable. All the silence was actually quiet, the sirens were gone, any weird stuff on your desk was gone, and I was like, this is really good, because I was using pretty crummy..I was using studio mics and a place with a hard wood floor, which is just a massive no-no, because I didn't know anything about actual audio even just a few years ago and then, finally, I upgraded my equipment and stuff like that and I was like, hey, you know, why don't you edit the show too, because I want to up my release schedule and all that stuff and he started editing and honestly, it's better/just as good as I would have done. He cuts out silences and he adds things in here and he makes it sound really nice, so he masters it, of course, which I didn't know how to do, and then once I finally re-upgraded my equipment even more, right now I'm using really high-end, the same stuff I used at SiriusXM, really, aside from the board and he masters it so it sounds just like, aside from when I record something on frigging call recorder, which downgrades your quality, it sounds just like it would if I was at SiriusXM, because I've got acoustic padding and all that stuff here now too.

Harry:
So, talk a little bit about the journey and then we'll join into current day, but how you ended up with the Art of Charm podcast.

Jordan:
Sure. How are started the show in the first place just completely?

Harry:
I've heard it and I want listeners to hear it. It's a very interesting story.

Jordan:
So, basically what happened was I work on Wall Street for a while, it's funny, I use this word so loosely. I had a mentor, his name was Dave, and what that means on Wall Street, what a mentor is, is somebody who HR says this guy is your mentor, so go out for coffee and dinner and stuff and you should like each other too, but that's optional. So, you've got that going for you, which is just gran. So, Dave was my mentor. He's never there. He was super cool, I mean, he hired me and everything. He was awesome, but he was never there. I mean, literally, 1pm on a Wednesday not there and he was a partner and I thought how weird, because it doesn't make sense for people who bill hours professionally to not be in the office and then one day I brought this girl up to my super cool Manhattan skyscraper office and I was like, this is going to be so cool.

She's going to be so stoked, because Wall Street jobs were hot, especially in 2007. They still are and then, being a lawyer, and being a certain age, I mean, there are literally women in New York who are like what firm do you work for? What level associate are you? Because they work in HR, in some other firm, or some other capacity PR, whatever, and they literally, there must be some sort of spreadsheet going around that says like, if he works at this place and he's been there for 2 years, here's the salary.

Harry:
So, are they like hedge fund gold diggers?

Jordan:
Yeah, exactly. Precisely. So, you'll be hanging out and they'll be like, oh, you know, you're an attorney, that's great and then they'll be like, are you here with clients, because then it's like their teeth are..the fangs come out, you know? And you're like, yeah, I'm here with investment bankers and they're just like, oh my god. It's like being a rockstar or something only I'm the roadie. So, I took her to my office and I was like, this is going to be so cool. Check this one off the bucket list. I show up and everyone's there. All the partners, all the senior associates, like 1am on a Saturday night and I'm thinking WTF, man. What is this crap? So, I ran the hell out of there before anybody could ask me to help them with anything, obviously.

I know how to preserve my weekends, so the next day or the next week on Monday, I go up to this mid level associate that I was cool with and I was like, dude, what's going on? Is there a deal closing? You know, sort of nonchalant, he's like, no, why? I'm like, alright, truth, I came in on the weekend, I saw a lot of people here, and here's like, oh yeah, we were here pretty much all weekend. I think I went home at 2:30am on Saturday. I'm like, what? Why? He's like, man, we're kind of always doing that. I thought, wow, wow, wait a minute. I'm the summer associate. My job is to bill hours and have fun, mostly have fun, and then when I get here my job is to bill hours, but I didn't realize I was going to be underground sweat shop labor here. This is insanity.

Harry:
That must have scared the shit out of you.

Jordan:
It scared the shit out of me. I was like, well, wait a minute, wait a minute. My mentor is not here at 1pm on a Wednesday. Why are these partners here at 1am on a Saturday? It doesn't even make sense. So, finally, Dave takes me out for coffee, probably because he had to check off a box on a form somewhere and just they made him do it, and he's like, ask me anything you want on his Blackberry click clacking away etc and I was like, okay, thinking I don't want this job anyway, because this is frigging terrible. So, why do you make more money than the other partners even though you're never in the office and he just sort of pauses, puts his Blackberry down, and he's like, how do you know that? I'm like, well..

Harry:
Hey, you there?

Jordan:
No, I actually don't bill hours…

Harry:
Hey, it just cut out for a second. So, he asked you, how do you know that.

Jordan:
He said, how do you know that? I said, well, the rumor is going around, so he's laughing, and he says, actually, I guess I maybe do make more than other people. I never really thought about it. Totally lying, right. I said, well, what do you just work a lot from home? Thinking maybe his wife is pregnant or sick or had tiny kids or something and he goes, no, I actually don't bill that many hours. I was like, okay, wait a minute.

So, our job is to bill ours, because we…one thing if you're not an attorney, which most people out there are not, if you are an attorney, your job is to bill in 6 minute increments as many as humanly possible from as many different clients as possible, because that's you printing money for the firm and, you know, you can't pad the hours, because clients know who is efficient and who is not, so you just work a ton for various clients. Well, if you don't bill hours, you don't get your hourly bonus. You sure as hell would not make partner and you'd definitely would be out on your ass well before then, because you're not making your net loss if you're not billing hours unless you're a paralegal, who also bills hours and does a lot of work and gets under paid.

So, the way this didn't add up in my mind was very profound. So, I said, okay, what do you do all day? Just totally stupefied and he said, well, I generate a lot of business for the firm, so at this point I'm like, screw coffee, tell me how that works.

Harry:
I'm getting the whole vision…you saw the Wolf of Wall Street?

Jordan:
Yes, exactly,

Harry:
When he's having that conversation with Matthew McConaughey.

Jordan:
Yeah, it's kind of funny, because I saw that and this looks strangely familiar, except I was at a Starbucks and they were at a nice restaurant and Matthew McConaughey actually wanted to be there and, you know, and he took Leo under his wing where as Dave could not wait to get the hell out of there. Checked a lot of emails on his Blackberry, basically never saw him again.

Harry:
But, he gave you what you needed.

Jordan:
He did. He gave me exactly what I needed, which was that knowledge. I said, well wait, how does that work? And he was like, limping and stuff, and I was like, first of all, a guy from Brooklyn with a tan, what's going on here. So, I was like, what's going on, you're limping, did you go on vacation? At this point I'm asking him questions not knowing, I'm just like sparing bullets everywhere, because I don't know what to ask and I figure if I get shit-canned, I don't care.

You know, worst case scenario, I'd probably get another job and it would be equally as bad. This is not like the best firm around. I just don't care. So, realize in 2006-2007, Wall Street was recruiting students from schools like Michigan Law by way of, hey, we've got a 2 week London retreat all expenses paid for everybody who is a junior associate at the firm and we stop in Prague on the way back. You know, just insane, because they want you to work there, because you are a net win big time if they can get you through the door.

So, he's telling me, oh, I do Jujitsu everyday, so I injured my knee. What? You do Jujitsu everyday? Alright, yeah. The tan? Oh, I was on a cruise last weekend from Thursday to Monday. What? When do you work? At this point, I'm getting sort of the vision of what his job really is, which I don't even think he had thought much about, which is, if there's an investment banking or potential client that has a day off anywhere in Manhattan, his job is to go hang out, play squash, do Jujitsu, go on a cruise, go to the charity dinner, hang out at the golf club with that guy, because the more time he spends with them and shows that he's cool, confident, competent, good for business, the more likely they are to throw him a deal and bare in mind, a real estate law deal could be 7 figures.

So, if he spends a 100 hours with one of those guys and gets 1 deal from it. That's a ton of money compared to the guys, even the guys who are billing 800 dollars, 600 dollars an hour to do work. He's worth 10 times or more than that guy in terms of revenue add to the firm. So, he's getting a bonus based on the clients he brings into the firm, which probably just dwarfs the $50,000, $100,000 bonus that a partner gets for just billing hours. So, it becomes a no-brainer for him to just never really bill that many hours, not even look at the clock and do a lot of quote unquote pro bono for the firm, knock that out, and hang out with people, and then get a million dollar real estate deal once a quarter, once, you know, every six months, because he's probably getting some percentage of that, which is worth more than the house I grew up in every single year.

Harry:
Yeah, I think he, what you realize now after the fact is he figured out that the time for money formula wasn't going to suit him in the long run.

Jordan:
Right, whether he did it consciously or not, he also probably realized, even though he's probably stuck in time for money, he probably went, well, I like hanging out, I'm good at hanging out, and I make a ton of money when I do my hanging out right, schmoozing, and stuff like that right, so why on earth would I be in the office? In fact, if you're a smart firm manager, you don't even want to see that guy in the office, except for the occasional all hands big deal meaning, because if he's in the office, it means he's not hanging out with somebody who can give your firm business. It means he's doing something that somebody else should do even if that other person is paid $800 an hour to do it.

Harry:
Yeah.

Jordan:
So, he would structure deals. I'm sure he had a high enough level of technical competence when it came to these deals, but even if he was the best real estate lawyer in the world, it would make more sense for the firm to pay somebody else to do that job. A lot of people are like, I don't care about how law firms, why are you talking about this? It does have a point and I'll get to it right now, which is that the reason that I stopped worrying about that, about all the Wall Street stuff goes back to this, the way that I looked at work changed. I realized that there's always going to be somebody outwork you. There's obviously people that are much smarter than you. I knew that even in law school that I wasn't going to be the hardest working or smartest kid there. That was a big realization for a lot of people. I already kind of learned that early, so when I got to Wall Street and realized I wasn't going to sacrifice my whole life for this company that I didn't really care about and this profession I didn't really care about. What I learned from Dave was, people skills not only get you in the door, because I got my job through networking in the first place, people skills are what get you to the top of the top. That never stops. That gain does not end once you get your…

Harry:
Hey..

Jordan:
I'm not saying..

Harry:
Sorry about that, sorry about that. I guess I'm going to be doing a lot of editing. No, Skype is cutting out.

Jordan:
Okay, I don't know if it's me.

Harry:
Are you recording on your end?

Jordan:
No. Should I be?

Harry:
Yeah, if you don't mind starting right now.

Jordan:
Start right now.

Harry:
I might grab your audio.

Jordan:
Say what time stamp you're at.

Harry:
21:30

Jordan:
Okay, so, I just started, so you'll hear that first thing. Shoot, what were we saying…So, basically, it depends on how you say this, right. If you say, oh, it's all about who you know, what that means you don't really understand the secret game being played around with networking and relationships and if you're like, in my camp, thank God it's all about who you know, because I know I can build relationships and get business and things like that much better than I can spend 20 hours a day, 7 days a week in an office, etc.

So, for me, I started to work on people skills, networking skills, I wanted to know everything I could, because that's what was going to get me to the top of the law game back then is trying to be like Dave. What I then found was a massive passion for psychology, pop psychology, real psychology, persuasion, sales, every skill set that involves human nature was just freaking fascinating, dating skills, all that stuff.

So, I started get really observed in that thinking this is going to be the key in this lucrative Wall Street career and what I started doing podcasting about it with my business partner with AJ. AJ was really good with women, so I was bringing the networking skills into play, he was bringing the dating skills into play and it was just a fascinating conversation. We went out every night for 6 days a week for over a year and we started recording the show because people were..

Harry:
Oh man. Lost you again for a second.

Jordan:
Called podcast in 2006 and we should check it out. You and I already like talking, you said you wanted to be a talk show host when you were a kid. I think it'll be fun. Let's go to Guitar Center, we'll get some microphones, and we'll plug them into the computer and record. So, we went to Guitar Center and they said, you want to plug microphones into a computer? I don't think that..I don't think you can do that. So, they ordered a USB interface for us, because God knows no body would have carried that at a store.

Harry:
Exactly.

Jordan:
We're probably the only people who ever bought that and him and I finally got it. We had it overnight, because we couldn't freaking wait. We had it over night, we got that thing, plugged in our studio microphones in a noisy basement with a furnace, and we started recording picking up every noise along the way, but we put the show…plus downloads per month and no more kitchen dancing, but just sort of more an emotional kitchen dance, if you will.

Harry:
If I remember correctly from one of your previous interviews, AJ is a molecular biologist?

Jordan:
He is a molecular cellular biologist, yeah.

Harry:
And he had game.

Jordan:
Yeah, which is like, what? Right? But, he had the same issue that I did. He would go to the lab and there would be guys who haven't left the lab for 15 straight hours and he's like, I'm just coming in to check my slides, bro. You know? His mentor, he had the opposite thing, his mentor was like, listen, if you don't put face time in this office, if you don't sit around and kiss butt, you're never going to make it to your PhD and after a lot of soul searching and a lot of alcohol drinking between him and I, he was like, I'm only doing this because my family wants me to be a doctor and I didn't want to go to medical school or didn't get in, I can't remember the whole thing on his end. It's like, that's dumb, let's do this.

So, I left Wall Street, he left biology, and we started really focusing on the Art of Charm, running our boot camps with our clients and that was 8 years ago and now it's a multimillion dollar operation.

Harry:
Yeah, what's fascinating is you understood the importance of networking and it seems like it's more common place now and probably as a result of podcasts and people talk about it all the time. I was reminded of it when you interviewed John Corcoran. I interviewed John as well and he does an excellent job of that, but the thing is the point that you make is not only can you…There is no top floor penthouse, like you said, where you finally made it, because the circle of friends and the influence just keeps getting wider and wider and then you're like all of a sudden meeting people that two years ago you would have laughed if someone told you you'd have a conversation with that person.

Can you hear me? Oh man.

Jordan:
Hey…

Harry:
Hey, we're back.

Jordan:
Hello?

Harry:
Yeah.

Jordan:
Okay, there were go. Yeah, it looks like you disconnected or we disconnected from each other somehow.

Harry:
Yeah, so I don't know what part of that you heard, but I can just repeat it.

Jordan:
I heard, I was talking to John Corcoran, there's no penthouse that you finally made it and that was it.

Harry:
Yeah, basically, there's no top floor to the level of networking that you can achieve, because the people begin speaking to are people that two years ago someone that told you'd had that conversation you'd probably laughed them out of the room.

Jordan:
Well, yeah. I mean, when I hear things, I just got an email the other day that says, hey, Larry King would like to be on your show and I was like, ha, ha.

Harry:
Wow.

Jordan:
Thinking yeah, sure, and also, I'm going to get, you know, hang out with the pope afterwards, because Larry King is one of the best interviewers in the world. One of the most famous people in America and he's pitching..Why are his people pitching me? This is insane. This is insane. When I started this show and started to really get into podcasting even four years in, I was like, maybe one day I can meet Larry King and ask him something about interviewing and his people are pitching me to come on AOC. It just doesn't make sense to me and like the emotional sense here. So, yeah, I would have been like, thanks for the vote of confidence, yeah, having Seth Godin on the show, people who are really, really accomplished, because you always have imposter syndrome or at least, I do, where it's like, wow, I can't believe I'm getting this person on my show. This is amazing and then afterwards they want to meet up in San Francisco. I'm like, cool, don't…

Harry:
Man..

Jordan:
And it's a lot of fun because what it says is now I can create even more amazing stuff for our audience and for the Art of Charm show fans, which is the whole goal anyway and so, it really allows..It's not just like an ego boost. There is that, but mostly it's like, wow, this level of access, I can create some really cool stuff that will just continue to change people's lives even at a higher level, which is awesome.

Harry:
It's funny. I did hear the one with Seth Godin and he had, he wrote about The Dip, and I was curious with so many episodes that you've had, did you had a proverbial dip in terms of your enthusiasm for the show, what you were doing, like thinking about what was the future and how much longer you could keep this up?

Jordan:
Literally December. Let's say, 2007 and we did the show for a year or like a year and a half, super enthusiastically, maybe a couple of years after that with waning enthusiasm, but we didn't realize it wasn't because we didn't like podcasting or something. It's because we had pigeonholed ourselves into this weird pick up artist sort of pigeonhole and now of course the show has evolved well past that, years ago, but we were just like, you know, these guys sucks. These guests are just really weird and we don't identify with them, but like, this is our show that we do. So, eh.

So, we kept doing it and then it was like, we will release every other week instead of…eh, this week we didn't have time. Eh, this month was kind of busy and after awhile we had some technical glitches, we were like screw it, we're done. I was like, eh, I kind of would like to get back into this, so the longest break we ever had I think was a couple of months and that was the only time we ever did that. I started to record it and I kept going and then I was like, you know what, a few years ago, probably three years ago the dip sort of ended and I was like, alright, I like recording, I feel good when I do this. I'm in the zone.

This is my area of focus and that was sort of when I was doing SiriusXM Radio as well. I really enjoyed it. I looked forward to it all week and I thought, why am I just waiting till Friday night evening drive to do this? I can do this whenever I want. So, I decided I'm going to record the podcast more regularly and then I started looking at best practices like releasing on the same day every week and I did that and my audience increased a ton and then I looked at other strategies like releasing more than once a week, because I had a massive back log of guests and I started to have help with my engineer, Jason, helping me edit the show and I thought, sure, I can ram it up to two and my audience more than doubled and then I rammed it up to three and my audience more than tripled and then I thought, okay, if I do any more than this, I'm going to hate it.

So, I stopped and I'm at three at week now, I'm going to ramp down to two, because I'm starting to get my most loyal, most sort of gung ho fans are even writing in and going, hey, yeah, I just wish I could keep up with all the good stuff. I'm thinking if people aren't even really listening to everything, let's go back to two where people can keep up, because I don't want people to get overwhelmed and go, ah, to hell with it, and find something new, because that's kind of how my mind works. Where you're like three seasons behind on something and I'm like, I'm over it.

Harry:
Yeah, you basically just scrap it. It's an interesting thing that happens, because it happened to me with another podcast and when they were doing once a week. I was a loyal listener and I was checking them out all the time and then they decided to, I think, I think they went up to three or maybe five and just the delouse of podcast and I just felt overwhelmed. It had the opposite effect, because I don't feel like I'm ever going to get caught up.

Jordan:
Yeah, it's tough and then you feel like you're not part of the conversation, which makes you lose affinity with the show. If you look at people who listen to Joe Rogan and stuff like that, they might not listen carefully to everything, but they will certainly, they will certainly listen everyday or at least close to it to sort of keep up with all the drama and…look at Howard Stern. If you don't listen to Howard Stern, you miss something. People download that to keep up. It's like a soap opera and that's extremely, that's extremely important. That sort of….

Harry:
Sort of that relationship that you have with your listener, right?

Jordan:
Text you and ruins it, right?

Harry:
Yeah.

Jordan:
So, you gotta listen the second it's up. People are texting each other. I remember walking down the street in New York and some girl behind me was like, hello? Oh, the new Serial is out? Hold on, hold on. Stops. Leans up against the wall, goes to the podcast app, downloads it, keeps talking to her friends. Yeah, it'll be done in like 4-5 minutes. Chats, chit chats, small talk, goes, okay, hold on, oh yeah, it's done.

Okay, cool, I'll talk to you later and I was like, no one has ever done that with the Art of Charm in the history of the whole show and probably never will, but like, that is awesome. I mean, that for me was exciting, not because I like serial, but because that means people are starting to give a crap for…I think it will replace radio and the only reason it hasn't already is because getting data in your car, it sounds like the future, but literally new models of cars usually 4G it comes standard in some of these models now.

So, in 2-3 years, it's going to be like, if you want, it's going to be like satellite radio. If you want to terrestrial radio, please downgrade your crap to this option, otherwise, here is a 4G radio with a year of data included and after that it's 5 dollars a month and even then smart brands like Spotify are going to be like, no, no, no. We will pay you for your data, but Spotify is what you have as a service on the radio and then you're gonna..There's going to be tons of that, because to have a user listening to Spotify in your car everyday for free and they pay your data, it's a really cheap way to get your ad..

Harry:
Yeah…Can you hear me?

Jordan:
Boo. Oh, okay. I didn't hear anything you just said, actually.

Harry:
No..This is going to be fantastic. I'm just going to give my whole audio file to my editor and be like, you're going to hate me when I'm done here.

Jordan:
It's like going and taking a dump on somebody's desk, like, here you go, man. This is the biggest piece of crap I ever recorded. I hope it comes out really well, bye.

Harry:
And when he makes it sound awesome I'll thank him.

Jordan:
That's the thing, it's like, you know, all those easy edits you had when you had to clip a few things and normalize the audio, this will make up for it.

Harry:
Totally is going to make up for it. No, I mean, it's fascinating what's happening with this podcast thing. When you start having people that you never even knew, like, you know, your girlfriend or your wife or whatever mention it like, oh, podcast this, podcast that, and obviously a lot of it has to do with Serial and Startup and all those folks, but we're in for some interesting times.

Jordan:
Yeah, I'm stoked. For me, this is, this is really cool because for you and I both, actually, I'm looking at a show that's increasing in popularity through a lot of effort on our part and also through organic means and there's a lot of stuff that's happening with my show that I don't even fully understand that's happening all the time looking at my download numbers and stats and things like that and, you know, I joined a network PodcastOne, which is now like, hey, why don't you come on Adam Carolla? Why don't you go on LoveLine. Can we have stone cold Steve Austin go on your show? Do you want to be on his show?

I mean, these are appearances where a year ago, I would have been this is a game changer and now it's like, can we schedule five of these in a row while you're in LA and that for me is extremely important to the growth of this show, because there's..I don't have stats on this and tell me what you think if you agree, I would wager that the vast majority of podcast listeners probably listen to the one show that their favorite celebrity is on and then like maybe another one that their favorite comedian is on and nothing else.

Harry:
Yeah, if they're not like me and you in the podcasting game sort of speak, then that's probably what happens, but interesting enough, it happened with Joe Rogan. I was turned on to a whole bunch of other podcasts as a result of that. I started listening to some of the other comics on there. Duncan Trussell, Bryan Callen. A lot of funny shit from people that I've never even heard of. I think that's what happens it becomes of rabbit hole you just go down and they mention once one podcast with this one guest and you go looking for them.

Jordan:
Yeah, see, that's awesome and of course, you know, the new mission is get on Joe Rogan and stuff like that and that's a great way to get exposure too. Although at the end of the day, you can go on that and your show can double in audience, but then you can stagnant forever there after. So, it's always a game of getting yourself out there in promotion and it's hard to compete with big companies like Nerdist who have girls in prog handing out Nerdist stickers at a bar, so that people listen. I mean, that's impressive. That's a huge machine. You can't do that by yourself. You need millions or at least thousands or $100,000 of dollars to pay people to do that well and, you know, that's next level. So, there's this huge divide. It's almost like HBO verse public television in your own city that no one watches. That's as close as I can analogize, right?

Harry:
Yeah, I keep tabs on Nerdist on Instagram and he always takes a picture when he finishes up the interview and his last one was will Bill Gates.

Jordan:
I mean, you know, yeah. It's only a matter of time till the president of the United States goes on a podcast and whatever.

Harry:
Exactly.

Jordan:
It's going to happen. A non PR podcast, anyway.

Harry:
Why not the Art of Charm then?

Jordan:
Yeah, maybe. Call in a couple of favors. No big deal. You know a guest I almost got that was, people are gonna be like, who? Aside from some of the celebrities and things like that, I had somebody emailed me and was like, hey, you know that guy who got released from North Korea who was in prison for a long time?

Harry:
Oh wow.

Jordan:
They were like, I know him. Do you want to have him on your show? And I was like, absolutely, and then we started talking more about it and just like, his life is so hacked up right now, he's like I can't even deal with it. Like, he didn't even have a belt and he doesn't have a driver's license that's current. Like, he's been living abroad and now he's weak and unhealthy and, you know, getting over like being in a breaking rock prison camp for, I think he was there for like three years. I'm like, yeah, I'll give him a minute to sort of recover, but that kind of stuff. You get those guests, you can get on main stream medium radar big time.

Harry:
What's been your biggest land? I mean, you've got a couple of high profile guests recently and I mean obviously you've got Larry King's folks calling in. I'm just curious what, in your mind, was..Because sometimes what people see is a big guest who is not so big a deal in your eyes and you have someone else in mind that's more important for your show.

Jordan:
Yeah. I definitely, you mean, what guest I have had that other people..Sorry. Can you repeat the question?

Harry:
Yeah, just what guest do you have where you're like, wow, I can't believe I got that.

Jordan:
Every single guest that I've gotten in the beginning was always that and recently there's been quite a few. Some of them are surprising easy to get, but other guests that I've, I don't know, let me think on that, that's a hard question, because I'm trying to think of who I've gotten that's been like, I can't believe this person is going to come on Art of Charm recently and there's not that…

Harry.
You there? Hey, test, test.

Jordan:
This point.

Harry:
Speaking of like having a lot of episodes, some of the trying I've been doing and the fact that, you know, I live up to the podcast name, I'm a podcast junkie, so I listen to so many that I've sometimes find that some of my favorites I sort of forget about. Out of sight, out of mind, so I saw that you spoke to Oren Klaff. I figured that..

Jordan:
Yeah, he was a huge pain to get on the show and now luckily we're friends so I can actually call him, which is cool, but man, that guy has got some gate keepers.

Harry:
I could probably do an f-bomb drinking game based on what I think that episode is going to sound like.

Jordan:
Yeah, probably.

Harry:
So, over the years and I can tell in the excitement in your voice that you really love, when you speak to your guest, I mean, you can feel the enthusiasm.

Jordan:
It's less of like a holy crap type of thing, I mean, honestly, the upcoming guests for example Larry King and stuff like that and that's where it's like mind is blown and this is the first I've mentioned it, because if it doesn't happen I'm going to look like a total a-hole, but you know what, I figure..It's not like I said, he's going to be on next week and then it's like not recorded yet and it flakes. It is just sort of pitch stage thing, which is really exciting. My plan for that interview, because people are like, well it's kind of off topic, what are you going to do? I'm literally going to do whatever I can to get Larry King..I'm going to ask him a few questions. I got a couple of ideas of what to talk about, but the rest of it is going to be, what do you think are the important things for people when they're talking to other people? What do you think are conversational techniques?

Harry:
Yeah, of course.

Jordan:
What's a good interview technique to get somebody to tell a story they don't want to talk about? We basically just trade craft. To get Larry King to coach you is probably impossible and to get him to coach you while bing live on your own show has, to my knowledge, never been done.

Harry:
I think that's amazing. It's going to be one of the most downloaded episodes and honestly, Jordan, if it doesn't happen soon, I think you already put it out there to the universe, so it's going to happen at some point or another.

Jordan:
Yeah, I'll just go knock on his door. I know how to get over an electric fence.

Harry:
No problem.

Jordan:
Yeah, so, that type of thing for me is exciting. It's cool to have celebrities and stuff on your show. For real, I don't watch TV, movies are okay, I'm not obsessed with them. I don't watch a lot of anything, really. So, when somebody is like a famous, quote unquote, person, it doesn't register in my as anything super exciting other than when I'm like, oh, a lot of people will be interested in this, but for me, it's less like, I can't believe you're in my studio. I don't really get that.

Harry:
Yeah, because at some point in time you've been doing this enough that your instinct as an interviewer takes over and you put all your focus on the guest to try and get the best out of the interview.

Jordan:
It's true. There are times, especially if my producer can get me to put my computer away and like forget the prep and everything. I remember being back at SiriusXM and talking with a guest in the studio and we're having such a heated conversation that we stood up, raised the mic booms all the way up so we could stand and talk and at one point I was standing on someone's foot for literally 5 minutes and didn't even notice and they didn't move or say anything, because we were probably 5 inches a part and basically using the same microphone at this point talking and he was like, I didn't want to mess with your flow, man, because I was so in this zone with talking with this guest and it would have been like, hey, you're on my foot, oh what, oh, what were talking about? It would have just ruined it.

Harry:
Yeah.

Jordan:
So, it's funny to see..

Harry:
Hey?

Jordan:
It's almost impossible to do not in person, you know, through Skype as well, but you learn to practice that skill set where you're just like really honed in on the conversation and it makes a huge difference for the listener.

Harry:
It does, because it feels like you have a connection whether or not you guys have experience or history together, I think if you're actively listening and you had one of the guys, I forget the guy's name, he was some sort of professor on the art of listening or something. This was probably 10..I think he was a non native English speaker, because I think what I remember is that you actually cracked a joke and it totally went over his head.

Jordan:
Yeah and I was like, that was Julian Treasure. He was talking about making warm up noises and I was like how often do you get kicked out of restaurants doing that and he was like murrrih murrih in the bathroom stall, that's weird, and he's like, it's never happened that I've been kicked out of a restaurant. I'm like, umm. That's not, that's weird. I guess that's not going to go over well, but I got so much email about that, because people were like, that was hilarious! And made funny by the fact that he was like, why would I get kicked out of a restaurant?

Harry:
How have you seen your interview style change or your skills actually as you've gotten more and more experience?

Jordan:
That's a great question actually. I'm not totally sure. Thinking about it relaxing and being able to go off the cuff without canning anything has gotten a lot better, so improvisation skills, I guess you would say, but also being able to..The important skill aside from getting riding of basics like getting rid of filler words and figure out ways to make things sound good in an audio-only format. There's two major skill sets that I can think of. One is sort of unique to the art of charm format, which is a teaching and learning type of show for those people who aren't familiar. We teach charisma, confidence, non-verbal communication, reading other people, social skills, persuasion, things like that.

So, that, I have to be a teacher, but I also have to be a translator and break things down, so putting myself in the mind of the audience is important for any host, but putting my mind of the audience as students where myself and the guest as teacher has been even more important. For, example, if somebody's like, yeah man, I just got back from Bahrain and it was fun, you know, blah, blah, and I'm talking to some comedian and he says that, I'd might say, oh, what were you doing in Bahrain, because I know that the listener is going to go, wait, what, Bahrain? Where is that? And, I might know where that is, so they might say, yeah, yeah, Bahrain is cool, man, it's a lot of fun and I'd say for those of us who don't know where that is, where is Bahrain and what part of Bahrain were you in? And they would go, oh, I was on a military base. We got a lot of our boys stationed over there.

Now it creates a better picture whereas otherwise people are thinking, what were you doing in Bahrain? Is that a tent city in the middle of Pakistan, like, I don't know what that is. I've never heard of that, because I live in Ohio and don't care about anything other than stuff in my neighborhood, which is fine, no judgments, but not everybody knows where all these tiny little countries are nor cares, but if you're telling that person a story and they don't know, they turn out.

Harry:
It's interesting from that aspect is you are activity taking into consideration the listener almost as if they were there in a studio audience with you and you have to make sure you're sort of bringing everybody along with you in the ride.

Jordan:
Yes, exactly. Precisely. So, the way that extends to the teaching aspect is somebody might say, so you wanna have, when you're doing this, you want to have really positive non-verbal communication, do you want to have great…and I go, wait, back up the truck, what is positive non-verbal communication mean and then they're like, well, you know, standing up straight, having a smile on your face, and having open body language. Yes, I know, I teach that at the boot camp at the Art of Charm, I do know that, but the guy who just tuned in for the first time has no clue what the hell that is, so if we start talking in jargon, they are out of here, and I know that from losing tons of listeners over the years by talking in jargon.

So, you want somebody who tunes into your show for the first time to be able to go, oh okay, so if I do this, and this, and this, I should achieve this result according to the guest and according to Jordan and that's why we're a science backed show and science based. If they can't replicate that result, well, this is useless. So, don't tell me something either only you can do, don't tell me something that doesn't make sense in an audio-only format, and don't tell me something that you don't think somebody else can learn with a reasonable amount of practice and the second also somebody tries to hide something like, well, the rest is in the book. Okay, cool, tell us what's in your book or I'm going to delete this right now and you can save yourself some time and have a sandwich.

I don't let people do that either, because any thing salesy or marketing is not okay, because then the show becomes a commercial. I have commercials on the show, but the show is not a commercial and that's a massive different I think most people listening to you and I right now, they understand, but there's a lot of internet marketers who are doing podcasts now and the massive major difference is their shows are largely commercials and the good ones deliver values and advertise their stuff at the same time.

Harry:
Yeah, what you're seeing is they're taking the old sales pages, the things that kept scrolling on forever and ever and translating that in to a show they think would have the same fact.

Jordan:
Right, it's not interactive and stuff and it's like, what the hell is this crap?

Harry:
So, you talk about how important it is to have the guests teach something or have your listeners learn something has that happened to you as well? I know you do a pretty bit of research or your team does the research on the guest when you're talking to them, but do you have moments when you're surprised at what you're learning from the guest on the show?

Jordan:
Yeah, all the time, actually. I think if you're not doing that, you're in trouble, because one, you're going to really not be interested in what your guest has to say, the other thing is, if you're not learning, you can't really..Here's the trick of putting yourself in the mind of the listener, you need to be learning too. If you're not, it's going to be really hard to get somebody to teach your audience something that you already know like the back of your hand and stay focused. So, if you are learning something as well, even if it's something you kind of already know or really already know, you have to forget as much as you can, because it's really hard to have a beginner's mind when you're not a beginner.

So, putting your ego away and your desire to showcase your knowledge away is very challenging and you can hear it even me struggle with it on a lot of shows where sometimes I'll chime in and add my two cents, which is great if you do it occasional, if it helps clarify, and bad if it's like look how smart I am and a lot of people struggle with that. I'm not going to say I'm immune to that as well, so it's tough, but the best way to make sure that everybody is learning from your show is to be learning as well.

Harry:
If I were to ask your friends who have known you for 10-20-30 years, how would they say you've changed if at all as a result of the show?

Jordan:
Most people that I've known for a long time say that I am a different person and I'm just completely different, much more confident obviously than I was before. It's really drastically. I admit it's night and day. Anybody who knew me as a kid, I was shy, quiet. Introverted, didn't talk much, didn't look people in the eye, wasn't really in good shape, didn't have a lot of ambition, liked to sleep all day, definitely a little bit depressed as a kid/teenager; join the club, right? Impulsive, etc.

Now, I say what's on my mind. I'm a clearer thinker. I go for what I want. I don't accept excuses from some myself. I have great relationships all around. I literally systematically changed pretty much everything about myself other than my hair color, since I started doing this show, because the show has been such an intense journey of personal growth, but it's not only that I have a passion for it, but if you're talking with people who have done amazing things everyday. You start holding yourself to this different standard where you're like, well, I should do that, but it's going to be so hard, well, Tim Ferriss did it, so I can do it.

Where as a normal person who doesn't have an exposure to all of this stuff, which is one of the reasons I do the show for the audience, if you don't have the show to these people, it's much either to go, I'm the world's shortest midget. I'm doing really well for myself, but if you start to look at different role models who have done amazing things and you pick and choose from them and their teaching you stuff, I mean, if you don't take action, man, you feel like shit and you should! Because you're basically staring at the key to the city, you know, the world is your oyster type deal, I mean insert your cliche here, all the tools are being handed to you and the only reason you're doing it if you're not applying the stuff is because you're afraid or you're too lazy.

Harry:
Yeah, that fear thing, man, that kicks in so fucking hard sometimes that you're just like left paralyzed, because as you know, and we've chatted about a conference I'm putting on, first time ever, never done anything like it, and I just sit there paralyzed sometimes in terms of like my next step, because that imposter syndrome kicks in big time, but then you have the example of people that are successful that have been doing it or people go on a podcast and follow your footsteps. Well, Jordan did it and he had to stat at one just like everybody else.

Jordan:
Yeah, I'd say there's so much that you can do and learn from this process that I encourage people to do, but I just don't encourage people to do because they want to make money. Podcasting is a crap way to make money.

Harry:
Everybody points it at one exception of John kicking ass…

Jordan:
But, yeah, here's the thing and don't get me wrong I like John, he's making money telling other people and selling them on a system on how to make money podcasting. The Art of Charm makes millions dollars as well, yes, it's a result of the podcast, but it's kind of like going, you know what, I need a really viable money making strategy, I'm going to be a movie star, I'm going to be a rock star. I'm not trying to equate the Art of Charm rockstar/movie star in terms of status, but I am saying the odds are pretty much the same. Everybody wants to make money doing something that they love, but if you're going to make money doing something you love, man, there are a million ways to try and do it than trying to get good a broadcasting and the monetize what you create.

Harry:
Yeah, to your point, it's going to be incredibly hard, because not only is it hard enough in of itself because of all the moving pieces, but the fact that everyone and their mother thinks that they're going to have a podcast show now and it's going to be a version of dash-preneur or dash on fire, which is getting seriously over kill right now. It'll just be fun to watch all shake out and see who's really in it for the long haul.

Jordan:
Yeah, yeah, of course. The reason why I don't do show that has less than 20 episodes or something like that is precisely because most people quit after 10 and so I know if someone's is like, I've got a new show, I'm like cool..You're doing it because you love it. Shit, we didn't make money for years. Didn't matter.

Harry:
Yeah. I think the important thing is the passionate..When did you find skill set needed when it was just you doing the shows as oppose to you and AJ?

Jordan:
Yes, it's better with a co-host. I definitely want to bring AJ back for some more episodes. It's was just a very, very different show. When you have somebody else you can riff on who is also thinking what questions to ask who also is putting themselves in the mind of another listener, because I can put myself in the mind of as many listeners as I think of in the moment, but two brains are always going to think better than one when it comes…

Harry:
Hey.

Jordan:
Joke around with each other, if the guest is a little slow, him and I can start talking, we can have a drink, it's not me drinking by myself, which I'm not adverse too, but that type of thing is extremely valuable, extremely valuable.

Harry:
And it's something that has to come over a period of time of working together and knowing the dynamics and the chemistry of the two people on the hosting side.

Jordan:
There's no way to just grab another person and be like, will you co-host a show with me? There's an entirely different skill set and a lot of people try and do that too like, hey, today, I've got my friend with me on the show and we're going to interview this person. You just brought two guests on that can't see each other that aren't experienced. The show is going to suck.

Harry:
Yeah, time is going to be off. They're going to be talking to each other. I've heard them with a quote unquote guest host and then I don't hear the guest host for the whole interview and they just say bye at the end.

Jordan:
Yeah, it's really weird. You have to have people with some hosting skills, because I've co-hosted shows before with people who are not experienced hosts and I will completely eclipse them even when I'm trying to include them, which is another skill set a host needs to be. You don't just have it. Including another person more than one other guest or more than one person in the conversation totally different skill sent than interviewing one person.

Harry:
So, Jordan, what keeps you motivated, because this is a grind if you let it get to you and if you lose your enthusiasm for it, so I'm curious and I love talking to podcasters who have been doing this for years now. I've gotten to talk to people who started way back in 2006-2007, you know, yourself, you've been doing it for a long time as well. I'm always curious, what's your motivating for continuing?

Jordan:
Sorry, I just lost everything that you said. I didn't hear anything.

Harry:
I've had the privileged for podcasting for years 2006-2007, folks like Dave Jackson and Ray Ortega, this woman Elsie Escobar, who is the community manager at Libsyn, she's been doing it since 2006 and you yourself have been doing it for such a long time. I always wonder what keeps you motivated.

Jordan:
Well, now this is my business, but I've always loved broadcasting. I wanted to be a talk show host when I was a kid, so, the fact that I can do this and make money doing it and I'm talking to interesting people all the time, you know, if you first start a show one of the common trends you'll see on learning areas are how do I get big names….So, I look at it really fortunately, I've got an email inbox full of interesting people who want to talk to me for an hour. If I were hiring them for a keynote for even 1% as many people who are going to hear my podcast, it would cost me $25,000 plus and yet I can ask them anything I want instead of just listening to their prepared speech and usually after the show I can call and go, hey, yeah, I know you're an expert in this area, what do you think about this and essentially they'll consult, because they're getting a lot out of the conversation in terms of exposure.

So, it's just win-win, all caps, I get a great show, they get great exposure, we both get a relationship out of it and we both make money. I mean, there's no…

Harry:
You there?

Jordan:
In fact, if I could just pick something that I could all day everyday I would just record the show, but there's other stuff I gotta do and frankly I don't want to get sick of it, but if I could just do the show. If all I had to do was record the show, send it to the engineer and I had producers and all that stuff managing all the logistics, which I largely do now, that would be great. You know? I would love some where topical and I would do my show and I'd have great conversations and live a really awesome life. The difference is, the reason why I don't do that, is because I'm building the Art of Charm with AJ and the team where we run the school live in LA where we teach these skills that we're learning. That's sort of a bigger legacy.

Harry:
Yeah. I mean, every podcast that really is passionate about what they're doing, you hear that as an overriding theme. If I could just get into the room, turn on the mic, record my show, and then leave, and then have some sort of magic happen, that'll be the ultimate. So, umm, I'm going to wrap up soon, with all the people that's jumping into this space, what do you think the biggest opportunities are right now for podcasters as oppose to maybe a couple of years ago if someone was going to get into podcasting now?

Jordan:
I mean, I think that there's a lot of people jumping in. It's great. They're becoming podcast fans will probably eventually give up doing their own show. There are recruiting their friends who don't know about podcasting into the fray a little bit, the unfortunate part of you starting your own show, there's a lot more noise. When I started I think there was something like 800 or maybe 8,000 shows in iTUnes. We're like, no one is ever going to find our show, man. We were stoked when we were number 25 in self help or something like that and then later on we were number…Now, my competition is like, Tim Ferriss competition. I put that in air quotes, because you know, podcasting is one of the few areas where you're not in business, especially…it's very cooperative.

Harry:
Your peers.

Jordan:
Your peers, right. It's still small enough where it's like, hey, you should come on to my show and I show come on to your show. Not, screw you, you're taking my market share. So, I've got Tim Ferriss, Dave Ramsey StartUp are ahead of me and that's pretty much it in the business category and now, you know, this year's goal is number one in business and stay there and then you know new challenges, big names that come and start a show will float to the top for few months. Their feature will expire and I'll get back right to my place at the time. That's my vision, that's my goal.

Harry:
That's your master plan.

Jordan:
That's the master plan.

Harry:
Well, I appreciate you being generous with your time. I really enjoyed the podcast and I think a lot of what, you know, we've had a couple of conversations prior to the interview and who you are when you're interviewing your guests is really your personality. It's who you are off camera, on camera, you're just the same person and I think that's the sign of a genuine and a sincere and a true podcast host, because that's the kind of person people want to listen to.

Jordan:
Thanks man, I appreciate you saying that. I do think it's funny when people are surprised. Like, wow, your voice is the same. Yes, it's the same, I don't use any fancy equipment to change it and then when I'm very much the same person on the show. People are always surprised. My girlfriend was a fan of the show before I met her and she's like, I was really relieved that you were the same guy, because she was worried that it was this cool, cool guy act for the show and I was really like this dick or some kind of schmuck in real life, which maybe she's just being fooled right now still, but yeah, I'm pretty much the same person. I talk the same, the conversations are largely the same. The jokes are equally crappy in person. The only difference is I don't record my everyday conversations and often they're not with famous people, but you know, other than that, I'm pretty much the same person. I might talk a little bit more on the mic than I do in a group.

Harry:
Very cool, so when you're not running the Art of Charm and you do have some opportunity for some down time, what interests you other than podcasting and talking to really cool people?

Jordan:
I, wow, good question. Other than podcasting and talking to cool people? Man, I travel..I learn languages. I'm learning Chinese right now.

Harry:
Nice.

Jordan:
I learn languages. I know a few and it just doesn't get old. Done.

Harry:
Do you approach that with the same rigor that you do your podcast?

Jordan:
No. No, definitely not. I certainly don't. I basically, languages are basically like a fun past time, fun thing, but no, my podcast, I'm obsessed with it. There's no more to it than that, really.

Harry:
Cool, well, thanks again, Jordan, and I look forward to breaking 400. Do you anything special when you hit your milestones?

Jordan:
Yeah, I try and have like a cool bigger named guest, but honestly it hasn't worked out that well, because the timing coordination and the fact that I'm not planning that much. I've got 400 coming up and there's no like secret surprise for episode 400. I had all the stuff planned and then like didn't execute on it and now I'm just like, eh, maybe I'll call in a favor and have, you know, Tim Ferriss come over my house and we'll record a show for episode 400 or like maybe I'll try and find some really interesting guest or maybe Larry King will pull through in time for 400, like that would be really cool, right, but otherwise, it's unlikely. Maybe I'll have AJ on for 400. I don't know.

Harry:
Yeah, just take it back to the old school.

Jordan:
Thanks for the idea actually, why don't I just do that. Now it's relief, because that's coming right up, I mean, that's literally, probably what, if it's not in February, then it's early March.

Harry:
Yeah with the production schedule you got and if you've got two or three a week, yeah, that sounds about right.

Jordan:
Excellent, man. Great, thanks so much for the opportunity. I really appreciate it.

Harry:
Alright, thanks, we'll be in touch. We're both on the west coast so I'm sure we'll meet up at some point.

Jordan:
I hope so man, maybe I'll see you at Podcast Movement or something.

Harry:
Yeah, yeah.

Jordan:
Alright, that's it.

Harry:
Thanks, Jordan.

Jordan:
You got it.

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