Morning radio? How am I going to learn from the Bob and Tom guys telling dick jokes on a podcast? I'm not going to learn anything from that! And they're like ‘No, no, no, there's so much more to it now.'
Harry Duran: Yeah..
Denny: I was like, ‘Woah, mind blown!' and the rest, as they say, has been history.
Harry: Podcast Junkies, Episode 32, and look at us, we're on schedule again! This week we talk to my friend, Denny Krahe. Danny is running things over at the Diz Runs podcast, and yes, I could not avoid making a running pun – you'll probably hear a couple more in the course of the interview. Denny and I have been friends for a little bit, now; we met through an online Mastermind that we're part of, and then we got to meet IRL (In Real Life), as the kids say, at Podcast Movement last year. We got to hang out and he proceeded to put all of us to shame by getting up at the crack of dawn and running 6 or 7 miles while the rest of us were nursing our hangovers.
So he takes that same level of dedication onto his website, his blog, his social media approach and his podcast. He interviews folks who identify themselves as runners, he does a fantastic job and I think he's even impressed himself with the reach of the podcast and his ability to consistently get entertaining and interesting guests on the show. He's got some pretty big goals for this year, as well, so I think he's going to make it. He's just got a level of dedication that I really admire. It's funny to see his growth, also, in the time that I've known him because he's really upped his game when it comes to some of the online videos that he puts out. He's got a whole strategy for blog posts and he's just really been attacking social media.
I'm really happy to see what he's going to do this year. It's a really fun interview, and as you know, I like having interviews with friends of mine, and Denny Krahe definitely falls into that category.
This episode is brought to you by PRDCNF, it's a one-day productivity intensive, which is going to be held in Downtown Los Angeles on May 9th. For more information, go to www.DowntownProductivity.com. So PRDCNF is a passion project of mine, and rather than record a standard audio of the promo every week, because it's going to be the sponsor of the show, I thought I'd do something a bit different and talk extemporaneously about why I think it's a fantastic conference.
I actually thought for a minute about whether I wanted to say that word, and I actually got it out okay so I'm pretty proud of myself. Anyway, this conference is going to be really fun and really productive – not to beat a dead horse with that word. I'm a student of productivity, myself, and I'm really motivated when I'm around productive people, when I'm around people who operate at a different level than I do. There's the Jim Rohn saying about surrounding yourself with the five people that you most want to be like, or something to that effect – I'm sure I just totally destroyed that quote, but I've really taken that to heart.
I touched upon it last week and I think there's something to be said when you're around people that operate at a different level. It just really elevates your own game, and that's the thought that I had when I started having conversations with folks that I wanted to have in the room and that I wanted to have speak at the conference. They're people that inspire me and who I see, through their businesses and through their online activity, and just folks that I've actually met in person that I'm really, really a fan of. That's all come together and I'm super excited, I can't wait for the event. I've got a lot of things in motion, it's the first time I've taken on a project this big. I think it's important that you take on big goals, even stretched goals, and for me, this is definitely one of those. I'm excited to be bringing it to you. It's May 9th, it's Downtown Los Angeles, so if you're in the area, you can definitely make it for the day. If you're not, make a weekend out of it – there's always stuff to do in sunny Los Angeles. www.DowntownProductivity.com for more details. Hope to see you there, and now sit back and kick off the running shoes and listen to me and Denny Krahe.
Harry: Well thanks for coming on.
Denny Krahe: Yeah man, thanks for having me!
Harry: Is the ‘h' silent in Krahe?
Denny: Um, I guess, yeah. It sounds like it should be – like ‘Kray' is how you pronounce it.
Harry: So it's not ‘Kray-he'?
Denny: Right. That was how we always use to know it was a telemarketer back in the day when I was a kid – you'd answer the phone and they'd say ‘Is Mr or Mrs ‘Kr-Kr-Kra-Krayhee' there?' And we'd be like ‘Nope, they definitely don't live here! I don't know who you're talking about!'
Harry: [Laughs]. Those calls annoy me so much that my first response is ‘How did you get my number?!' That's the first thing I ask.
Harry: So in typical Podcast Junkies fashion, we've already started.
Denny: [Laughs]. Oh, fantastic.
Harry: So how have you been?
Denny: I've been good, I've been good. It's a new year, starting fresh. Just keep going one day at a time, but it's been good.
Harry: Where were you a year ago today?
Denny: Oh man! A year ago today I might have been just hearing about the resurgence of podcasts. I was definitely not doing one, definitely not listening to any. I was just kind of starting to sniff around the podcast territory a little bit, and then fast-forward a year and apparently I'm officially a Podcast Junkie now. What a difference a year makes!
Harry: It's crazy, right? I was the same way. In January of last year, I had a mobile app and I went over to NMX and I thought ‘Oh, let me see if I can start a podcast' and you really underestimate how much you can get done in a year. What I've heard someone say is that we underestimate what we can get done in a day and we underestimate what we can get done in a year.
Denny: Definitely, I definitely believe that. I always have lists of things to do for today and you feel like you never get any of it done, but then when you look back at that big picture and you connect the dots, looking back you're like ‘Wow! A year really did get a lot done!' but man, yeah, always I overestimate for a day or think ‘I can get this done in an hour', and then 3 hours later, you're still editing that podcast or whatever it is you're working on. How did the day get away from me, I've been working on this stupid thing all day!
Harry: So Diz Runs is the site. Did you have the site a year ago and you were just thinking about other ways to market?
Denny: Yeah, I started that site probably about 2 years ago, but it started out just strictly as a running blog. It was just a written thing, nothing fancy. I guess I kind of had that mentality of ‘I'm going to start this blog and I'm going to have millions of people come to visit it and I'm going to make millions of dollars and be like the next fancy run blogger!'. But then you're like ‘Wait a minute, no I'm not!' I was just working on that and just writing and keeping track of what I'm doing, running-wise and just odds, ends and little things.
Eventually, when I started podcasting about a year ago, it was with a different podcast on a different website, more about my personal training stuff. I started thinking about how I could add that to the running side of things, because I really liked podcasting and running is more of my passion, I guess. That's what I do for fun. I love doing it, I love talking about it. It's always been – well, maybe not always, but in the last 5 years, it's been that that's my thing. I can go running and everything else is good in the world. If I can get a run in every couple of days, everything else is okay.
So once I got exposed to podcasts, I was like ‘Oh man, how cool would it be to talk to runners?'. It took a little while to get my feet underneath me and get an idea and try to figure out a way to be different from everybody else that's doing it. There are so many shows out there, especially in the running world. It's just like every other niche – everybody's talking to the same people and how can I make it a little bit different? How can I do something that's a little bit different when I'm talking to the same people? How can I be different?
It took a little while to get going, but once I'd got a few ideas going and started really thinking about it, it kind of took off on its own a little bit.
Harry: Who were you listening to back then?
Denny: When I first started, I think probably the most would be the typical cast of characters; I got in listening to John Lee Dumas, of course. Everybody that starts podcasting starts off listening to him a little bit. There was some Pat Flynn. I pretty much got into a couple of different Facebook groups and just started listening to people's shows that were in those groups, basically. They were people that were starting new shows or things like that, like ‘Hey, I'll listen to your show, you listen to my show' and I kind of got started that way.
Pretty soon, you've got 50 podcasts on your player and then there's no way you can keep up with them and you've got to start weeding them out and picking out the ones that you like more and the ones that are more interesting to you for whatever reason. Of course, then you're listening to shows and you hear other podcasters on shows and you're like ‘Oh, that guy might be cool to listen to', and pretty soon you have to whittle it down and be a little more selective. I just started out listening to anybody that I knew from the Facebook groups that had a show.
Harry: What about on the running side? You must have been at least following some blogs, if not listening to some shows of people that were doing something that, at the time, you were probably either reading or just keeping tabs on.
Denny: A little bit. It was probably mostly just keeping up with people on Twitter. I don't want to say that I've always been a huge Twitter guy, but definitely in the last year and a half or so, I've really gotten into Twitter, and just following people on Twitter – not even so much as following their blogs or listening to different podcasts. Although since coming into podcasts, I have started listening to some. It was just more of keeping up with who's doing what on Twitter and running magazines and things like that, since I do kind of follow it. It wasn't so much about the everyday runners. I wasn't paying as much attention to the blogs and stuff, it was more the news, the stars, the pros, things like that. But then when I got into doing the show…
I feel like a lot of people when they're doing a show they want to talk to the most famous people all the time. Yeah, cool, it's cool to have them on once in a while, but it's also really cool to talk to other people. I had a guy on a week or so ago, that literally lost half of his body weight. He was like 330 pounds, he started running and he's down to like 160-170 right now. That kind of story is, I think, a lot more inspiring. It definitely connects with people a lot more than just this person that's always been the fastest and has run their whole life and it just genetically gifted – they work hard but if you've got the right genes, that sets you up to work hard and have huge success.
Those people are fun to talk to, but man, the people that just have those motivational stories are really cool to talk to too.
Harry: When you started, like everybody else, I'm assuming you were trying to figure out who exactly you were going to reach out to to have on your show?
Denny: Oh yeah. I was going to reach out to the biggest and the fanciest, all the pros. I was going to have the Meb Keflezighis and the Shalane Flanagans and all the people that you see at the Olympics and the people that are running professionally. I've reached out to some of them and some of them have been on the show; some of them haven't, of course, even responded. But then you start to realize that there's a lot of other people out there too, and there's a lot of cool stories and different ways to connect. Someone that may “not be anything special” has got their own unique angle and their own unique way of doing things, reasons they run, things like that, and so after you realize that you're not going to get nothing but A-listers all the time – and especially when you've got 6 people that listen to your show – I don't want to say that you settle, but you start to realize that other people have a lot of value to bring too.
The running community is a pretty close-knit community, I think, anyway, or at least through social media and stuff. There's a lot of Twitter chats and things like that that people are always on, and so it's real easy to get to know some people and be like ‘Hey, come on my show', and they're like ‘Really? I don't have anything special to offer!' And by the end of the episode, people listen to it and say ‘Man, that was really cool, this person's story here and here', so it's been really neat to see the evolution of what I thought it was going to be to what it actually is. I'm sure most people, when they do their shows, kind of have that evolution process too.
Harry: It seems to be an overriding theme when I talk to other podcasters about how what they thought it was going to be is not like what it actually turns out to be, and you find you have some of the best conversations with some of the unlikeliest people. Like you said, they're more eager to tell their story and that comes through in the interview.
Denny: Yeah, absolutely. I can't remember who said it, but I heard it somewhere – the people that are on the podcasts all the time and they're always telling their story, it's almost like they get on autopilot and it's just ‘Here's my background, I started this business or I ran this race, or whatever, and they're just telling the same story every time'. Those people that haven't been on it before are excited and they're ready to tell something different. It's just so fresh to have that conversation, and it's a lot more exciting for me, at least, when I'm talking with them. You can just tell when people really aren't paying attention and they're just, I don't want to say going through the motions, but they're basically going through the motions.
Harry: [Laughs]. Yeah, you can tell because they've been on so many different shows and typically, they must get asked the same questions over and over. I just wonder if they get tired of telling the same story.
Denny: I would imagine. I try not to do too much listening to other shows that people might have been on because I don't want to do the same thing that everybody else has done, but at the same time, you kind of have to do enough research to know that this is probably what everybody has talked to this person about, if it's somebody that's kind of a big name.
Denny: So that you don't keep bringing up the same things, but yeah. Even when they're passionate about it and telling the story, it's like ‘Man, you've told that story a bunch of times'. You can tell because it just slows. The narrative just goes. They don't want you to interrupt them, it's just like ‘Let me tell the story because I know the story pretty well'.
Harry: Yeah, because those are the people that realize it's a gift for them to be able to tell the story, and if it's one of those stories of recovery where they had a huge downturn in their life and they recovered, whether it's from something as serious as cancer or they were just really sick, or like the guy that lost half his body weight, I imagine it would be a long time before they get tired of telling that story.
Denny: Oh yeah! When that guy came on, I'd actually asked people on Twitter who would be good and who they thought I should have on the show, who should I ask? He was somebody that's really changed their life and it would be a good person to have on. He can say ‘This is my story', and I immediately turned the tables on him and said ‘How about if you come on and talk about your story?' He was like ‘Oh, uh, yeah, okay, I'll do it!' and we had a great chat, like I said. It was really cool. It's been a fairly recent episode, but I've probably got as much or more feedback from other people about that episode, just because I think it is something that a lot of people…
Maybe people aren't going to lose half their body weight, but if they're trying to get into shape and they might want to start running but they're not sure, here's a great example of somebody who really didn't change his lifestyle that much, other than he just got active. He found that he liked to run, so he started running. He didn't like running when he first started, but he figured it out and man, I don't know how many years he's added back onto his life, but you drop 160 pounds, you're buying some more time on this earth, for sure.
Harry: Man, that shows real motivation and I think it makes you really feel good about being in a position where you can allow people to tell those kinds of stories. Not to be too extreme, but if it wasn't for your show, some of these voices might not even be heard.
Denny: Oh yeah, maybe we don't think about it like that all the time, but when you do and you kind of step back, he didn't even know how to set up Skype. When you do podcasting and you talk to podcasters or other people that have at least been on shows a bunch of times you're like, ‘Oh yeah, Skype, no big deal, blah blah blah', and he's like ‘Well, I don't know, can I set it up on my phone?' I'm assuming that outside of his local community, local running groups or things like that, that his unique story hasn't been told very often, so it's really cool to be able to share that. If it inspires one person, which I think at this point, it has already inspired at least one person, then it's very well worth it for both of us. It was really cool.
Harry: How has your interview style changed? For me, personally, I say it a couple of times, but I was very rigid Q&A style in the beginning, and then I just realized ‘Man, that's not me, that's not how I talk to my friends'. I want to be the same person on the mic that I am when I'm not on the mic, when I'm having a conversation or I'm listening to other people have conversations, where I'm just literally fixated. I could listen to them talk for 2-3 hours and it feels normal. Have you had that same thing happen to you?
Denny: Yeah, definitely. When I started my first show, it was probably 99% just a solo show. I think I maybe had one interview out of about 50 episodes. They were shorter episodes, obviously, because it's hard to keep people's attention for much longer than 15 or 20 minutes when you're talking by yourself. It was doing this show, the running show, that was a different beast because it was going to be an interview show. It was going to be talking with people, and when I was having the brainstorm and building up the idea for it, it was that I don't want to do the same rigid questions for every episode. I wanted to be very conversational.
Your show was one that kind of inspired that, and they were shows that I found I really liked because they were different. It was okay to go down a rabbit hole – if someone said something, we'll chase after it and we'll see where it goes. If it doesn't go anywhere then no big deal, we'll come back. If it goes somewhere and we completely derail for the entire rest of the episode, then that's okay too.
Harry: Then so be it.
Denny: Yeah exactly. So that was the goal. That said, on those first few episodes, I would still have 10-12 questions written out as a ‘just in case I need them', and since they were written out, it was like ‘Well God, I've got to use them, I can't let them go to waste!' Even though I was telling myself that I was going to be very conversational and very loosey-goosey and letting it go with the flow, they'd answer a question and I'd be like ‘Alright, so moving onto this next topic'. Ugh. It was bad. And now I think I'm at the point where I'll maybe write 3-4 bullet points and each bullet point will have 4 words at the most, to just remind me what direction I might be thinking about there. Half the time, I maybe only use the first bullet point, just to get the conversation started, and then it's just about letting people talk and interjecting and adding to the conversation.
Like you said, that's how you talk with friends, and that's what I want my show to be. I want it very relaxed and very go with the flow, and more often than not, I feel like those are the ones that are much more fun to listen to. I've had people say ‘Oh, I was going to ask that, I was wondering…' and you follow it up with exactly the question that I would have wanted to offer as well. I guess that makes me feel good that maybe I'm doing it the right way, but the style has changed dramatically, and probably in the first 15-20 episodes when you really get comfortable with not feeling like you need to over-prepare. Know a little bit and kind of have an idea, but just go. I'm almost scared to go back and listen to some of my first episodes. I'd be like ‘Man, I was so bad at this at the start', but then you realize that probably everybody was pretty bad at the start too, so it's not that big a deal.
Harry: When you think about it, you picked running, I picked podcasters. I always give the example of Being John Malkovich because I think what I do is super mad. I get into a podcaster's head, but I'm a podcaster. It's really weird. The thing is, I like talking about podcasting. I think it makes sense because I always feel like I'll find something interesting to ask or a nice direction to take the conversation into because it's just born out of natural curiosity. With you and running, and you've been running for the majority of your life, I think it just comes naturally that when you're talking to another runner, you'll find stuff to talk about.
Denny: Yeah. That's exactly the idea of it. I feel like those early few episodes when I really was much more scripted than I wanted to be, I wasn't following the natural progression. I wasn't just allowing things to develop. Obviously, by being interested in the subject, it's much more easy to allow things to develop and there's a lot of common ground that blurs across all the different running lines, whether you're one of the Olympians that I've had on the show or whether you're the people that have just started running in the last few months. There's still plenty of ways to relate to each other, and just allowing that to happen has been fun. There's challenges sometimes, but it's been easier, I guess, because it's something that I'm interested in, to allow those conversations to happen like that.
Harry: Do friends or family notice anything different about you since you started the podcast?
Denny: That's a good question. I don't know, you'd have to ask them I guess!
Harry: I'm a bit biased because we're in a Mastermind together and we've hung out at Podcast Movement, but even in the short time I've known you, and I know you do some webinar videos and you've started delving into that a bit more, but I've noticed that your personality is coming out more recently. I don't know if it's a result of the podcast, or just being around people – maybe you're motivated by what other people are doing and that kind of pushes you to take your stuff to another level.
Denny: Thank you – I think that's a compliment..
Harry: Yeah it is.
Denny: But I think that it's probably a combination of that – of being around other people that are doing the same things. Maybe it's somebody and we started a show at the same type of time-frame and I feel like they're really killing it, and maybe I haven't got to that level yet, so maybe I need to emulate that person a little bit and try to learn from some of the things that they're doing. Then I can improve that way. Or maybe it's just seeing people grow in other ways and trying to keep up. Being more confident about what I'm doing, I think that makes it easier to allow more personality to come through because I'm not thinking all the time.
I'm not thinking about what the next question's going to be and I'm not thinking about how I might look on the YouTube videos or on the webinars or how I might sound on the microphone. I think that's another thing that everybody struggles with at first. It's like ‘Oh my gosh, I sound ridiculous'. Well, we all sound ridiculous, so just be yourself and go! I don't know if other people do this, but I don't know if my online personality, if you will, is different from my real world personality. I don't know if people are noticing a big difference, or if it's just that I'm coming out of my shell more online and I'm just who I am in person. I don't know, it's an interesting question. It's something that maybe I should ask some people around me, whether I've changed a lot in the last 6-8 months since I've been doing the podcasting.
Harry: It's gonna be like ‘Damn, Denny, I meant to tell you. You used to be a nice guy, now you're an asshole. What's up with that? It's ever since you've been like this podcast guru, man.'
Denny: Yeah, I'm kind of a big deal now!
Harry: You mentioned a couple of times about the feedback or a comment you've gotten. Every podcaster loves to hear even the smallest sort of feedback, whether it's a Twitter comment or an email or someone even at a conference mentioning that they listen to your show – it still blows me away. I don't know if it has the same effect for you, but I'm just interested in your thoughts. When you first started getting the feedback, what did you think and how important is that as your show grows?
Denny: Oh, it's vital. You hear different people talk about the lifeblood of the podcast, whether it's the ratings and reviews on iTunes, or whether it's the people that subscribe and the number of downloads, or however people want to measure their influence or measure whether their show's being taken seriously and is growing. For me, it all comes down to the interactions. Sure, would I love to have 1 million downloads per episode? Well, God, yeah, who wouldn't? Obviously there's a little part of me that wants to have the biggest and the baddest and the best show, and people to use that for whatever it's worth to get bigger guests, or to get other guests, or to just always make sure that you have guests that are willing to come on your show, or to monetize, or whatever.
Just hearing back from people – if only 10 people are listening to your show, but 5 of them are willing to give you feedback and give you comments and shoot you an email here or there, or interact with you on Twitter like ‘Hey, I really loved when you…' or ‘This interview is great, I learned this thing about so and so, wow what a cool…' I'm not saying that I hope that I only have 10 people that are subscribed to the show, but I'd rather have a lower number of listeners, but a higher number of people that are engaging, if that makes sense. That definitely is the thing that really keeps me going and keeps me emailing people every day saying ‘Hey, I have a podcast, I'd love to have you on it, can I send you some more information?' Even when you don't hear back from them and you're following up the next week and just staying on top of it, hearing that people are actually listening to it by having them tell you and not just saying that maybe they clicked the link and listened to 5 minutes of it and didn't even make it through the introduction and they moved on? If you know they listened, then it's worth all the effort.
Harry: Are you getting a lot of referrals? People that were on the show and said ‘Oh, here's someone you could talk to', and just building the guests like that?
Denny: Definitely that's been some of it, and that's definitely something that I need to do a better job of always asking those questions. I'll think about it a few times and then a few times I won't, and then I almost feel bad going back to somebody three weeks after their show aired and saying ‘Hey, by the way, do you know anybody that you think might be interested in the show that you might be willing to introduce me to? Or at least refer me to and don't mind that I mention your name?' When I remember to do that, I usually get at least one person from most guests, which is great. I need to systematize, and obviously that's a big thing for you. Some of my automated emails that go out for reminders and things like that: ‘Hey, if you know anybody that might be interested, I'd love to get that recommendation.' It's something that I need to improve on, for sure, but yeah, when I remember to do that, man I usually get some great guests. I've always had great guests that way, where people have just been referred to me.
Harry: So I'm always a big fan of putting stuff out into the Universe because you've got to put the intention out there and then it's sort of like the Universe takes care of how it's going to happen so you don't have to worry about that. What are your top three bucket list guests? I don't know what you would call them, but who are the big, audacious goals for 2015? Who would you love to have a conversation with?
Denny: I definitely know one. I don't know who my others would be – I'll come up with something before I finish answering this question. The only requirements, really, of being on my show is that you run. You don't have to be at a certain level, you don't have to be a super serious runner, you don't have to be pro or anything like that, you just have to be a regular runner. You have to self-identify as a runner. Some people are like ‘Well, I run once in a while, but I wouldn't call myself a runner'. Okay, then you're not cut out for my show.
Harry: Then no Diz Runs for you.
Denny: Yeah, exactly. Diz Runs is not running with you. My Number One guest, and I've never reached out to him yet and he's always been the one that is my one ‘ahhh' moment if I can get this one guy – it's Peter Sagal from NPR's ‘Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me'. He's the host of the NPR show. He's written a column for Runner's World off and on for a few years and he's a better runner than I am, as far as his marathon times are faster than mine, but I just think his job is fantastic. What a job! You host an NPR show that's a fun show. Everybody knows ‘Wait, Wait'. What a cool job. I wouldn't even want to talk running with him that much, just like cool things that he's seen through people that have been on his show, and all that kind of stuff.
He's definitely always been the one on the pinnacle. I just haven't been brave enough to reach out to him yet.
Harry: So I'll give you some time to think about the other two, so we'll dive a little deeper on that. How did you find out that he was a runner? He's obviously known more for the podcasts than for running.
Denny: Yeah, well, he's obviously well known for doing the NPR show, but he's written a column in Runner's World for a number of years, and talking about his running. I don't know, he maybe mid-forties, early fifties, something like that, and he's running marathons. I guess I might have even read his columns in Runner's World before I even started listening to his show very regularly on NPR, and then I put it all together as ‘Oh, he hosts the radio show and this is the same person' type of deal.
Harry: By the way, I call this the podcaster's voice, aka. podcast confessions, so if you want to admit right now that you were stalking him online for years, then that's okay.
Denny: I don't know about years, but at least for maybe a week or two here or there at some point. I was following him on Twitter. Twitter stalking him, yeah, I've definitely Twitter stalked him, looking for ways to interact a little bit on Twitter. Just to get my name on his radar.
Harry: You're like ‘Oh my God, you like Oreo cookies? I like Oreo cookies!'
Denny: [Laughs]. What a coincidence, we both like Oreos!
Harry: You never know, it can be the most random thing that you mention to someone. I've made comments on Twitter sometimes and then the person responds and before you know it, you're having a conversation with them. Ilan and Guy Ferdman started with a Twitter conversation. Cynthia Hernandez, I made a comment on her Pinterest page – you know, she's Pinterestable – and I think I actually made the ask on Pinterest. So yeah, if you have people, go where your ideal guest is, where they hang out, and just be that fly on the wall. If you find something that you can relate to, by all means jump into that conversation. We put them on this pedestal, these ultimate guests if you will, and they're just regular people like you and I. You'd be surprised and when you just ask and they're like ‘Yeah, sure, no problem'.
Denny: Same thing. My original two were both Peters – it was Peter Sagal and Peter Shankman. I follow Peter Shankman online and I've followed his blog for years. It was one of those random things where I was logging into Twitter and he had just said something about 2 seconds before, and it was some type of random question. I was like ‘Hey Peter, any chance I could have you on my podcast as someone I can contact?' and he was like ‘Yeah, sure, email so-and-so and we'll set it up for you'. I was like ‘Wow, fantastic.' It was just the perfect, serendipitous thing. The timing was perfect. He's been on the show, so he's been crossed off of the top three people that I would still like to have on. Right now, the original 1a and 1b, I don't know who is really ahead of the other, but those were both the two that I wanted. I've had the one. I literally asked him and he was just said to email whoever his assistant was and she set it up. I emailed and she emailed back and bam! we were scheduled a few weeks later. It was amazing.
Harry: I think we're at an interesting time. Obviously, we know that podcasting's been around forever, and the folks like the Dave Jacksons, the Rae Ortegas, the Daniel Day Lewis's of the world are like ‘Oh, podcasting rebirth, man, it's a resurgence!' We roll our eyes like ‘Dude, we've been slogging it out since the 2000s.' Shit, it's going on 10 years if you really think about it! I think really now, with Serial, with StartUp, you literally hear people mentioning the word ‘podcast' and you've got to do a double-take. You're like ‘What, you know about podcasts?' And they're like ‘Oh yeah, Serial'.
Denny: It's so convenient now. You talk about these guys that have been doing it for 10 years. I started listening to podcasts, gosh, probably almost 10 years ago, back when my impression was that I was just listening to radio shows. It was like morning drive-time radio and you listen to 10 minutes in the car but then you can download the whole podcast and listen to it later. I kind of thought that was all podcasting was and it just got to be such a pain in the ass to plug your iPod into your computer every day and download the show and make sure to delete and have space and blah blah.
I finally just kind of got away from it, really, and just thought that that was all podcasting was until, like I said, just about a year ago, where all of a sudden people were telling me ‘You should think about doing a podcast, you should at least listen to some. You're a solopreneur, you're an entrepreneur, you're trying to build your business, you can learn a lot from some of these podcasts.' And I was like ‘Wait, like morning radio? How am I going to learn from the Bob and Tom guys telling dick jokes on a podcast? I'm not going to learn anything from that.' And they were like ‘No, no, no, no, there's so much more to it now!'
I was like ‘Woah, mind blown', and the rest, as they say, has been history.
Harry: I'm so happy that you didn't call your show ‘The RunPreneur', or ‘Runner on Fire' or something like that.
Denny: Yeah, there's enough ‘-preneurs' and ‘fires' going on that I don't need to. Nothing against some of those people – to each their own – but that's not me. Like Michael O'Neill says, it's too hard to spell ‘preneur' anyway, so why would you put that in your title? To each their own. I'm not doing a business podcast so I don't need to be on fire and I don't need to be a preneur.
Harry: And just for the record, we ain't hatin'.
Denny: No, not at all!
Harry: We actually know a lot of those people and some of them are actually friends of ours.
Denny: Yeah, exactly.
Harry: We were hanging out at Podcast Movement and I think I came down one morning. I think I came down for breakfast or something like that, or the sessions had started, and you were like ‘Yeah, I just ran' – I think you said like 7 miles or something ridiculous like that. I'm like ‘Okay, he's holding true to his show, he really is passionate about running.'
Denny: Yeah, that first night I had to go to bed a little bit earlier than everyone else. It was like midnight and I was falling asleep but I had to get up and go running in the morning, and the next morning it was raining so it was kind of a worthless day to go run. I knew I needed to do something because I was going to be sitting and talking the rest of the day. I needed to have a little bit of that activity in the morning for sure.
Harry: So is that more like a – I think that what I can equate it to is when I do have the chance to do workouts in the morning. For a while I was on this big cross-fit 5.30am kick, but it sort of changes your whole day. Endorphins kick in and you just feel like you're already getting the day off to a good start, and I imagine that has a lot to do with it.
Denny: Yeah, definitely. If I can get a run in in the morning, I just feel like I've hit the ground running with everything else, instead of putsing around on my email for an hour and checking Facebook and reading the newspaper, and then going back and checking my email again and checking my stats, and then going and checking my email again and now checking Facebook again. Pretty soon it's 10 o'clock in the fricking morning and I haven't done a damn thing yet. Those mornings where I just get up, and whether it's getting a run or just taking the dogs for a walk and just starting the day right away, being productive, it really manifests and breeds productivity. I guess maybe – what's the negative of productivity? Non-productivity? Whatever.
Harry: Yeah, inactivity?
Denny: Inactivity, yeah. It breeds inactivity. If you're putsing around, wasting your time and not getting on the task, it's easier to stay off-topic. There's just something about it.
Harry: It sort of puts you into that mindset of having accomplished something. It's like the Marines say, they get more done before 6am than most people do all day, or something like that.
Denny: You get your blood flowing and you burn a little bit of that – I don't want to say nervous energy, but you just burn a little bit of that energy. That's a great point too: you've got something accomplished. I did my work out and now it's time to get on with business for the rest of the day.
Harry: Now it's time to check my Tweets!
Harry: That's crazy. But you actually have a goal, right? You're trying to run – what is it? It's not just running in all 50 states, you're trying to run a marathon?
Harry: So how's that going?
Denny: It's going alright, I just started this goal I guess about two years ago, and I've got 4 states down. Actually, this year I ran only maybe one state, I guess, this year. I ran Florida a couple more times, but I live in Florida. I've run I think 4 or 5 marathons in Florida and then 3 other states – one marathon each in South Carolina, Missouri and Virginia. I'm 4 down, I've got 46 to go.
Harry: You're working your way up?
Denny: You know, it's one of those things where right now, the finances aren't enough that I can just willy nilly travel to whatever state I want to to run a race. Whenever I'm going somewhere for some reason, it's like ‘Well hopefully there's a fricking race nearby' – two birds with one stone. At least that was how Missouri worked out. My wife's best friend was getting married and we were in Kansas City, but Missouri was 10 minutes away and there was a race on that side of town in one of the suburbs of Kansas City, but just on the Missouri side, so it was like boom! marathon done. I'll run that one and we'll fly home a few hours later than we were planning to. Right now I'll just do it as my schedule allows it. I guess it was kind of born of the fact that ‘Hey, there's a lot of places in this country that it'd be cool to go visit'. Maybe I would never make it a point to go to some places, or at least to go to as many places, but if I have to run a marathon there, then I'll do it. It was a good motivator – I haven't really done it yet – but just to see the country as we go along.
Harry: I have a feeling that as the podcast picks up and I know you recently picked up a sponsor, so a shout-out to Ultre, is it?
Denny: Yeah, I am an ambassador for the Ultra shoe company, which is pretty cool.
Harry: Very cool. Yeah, and I think just going down that same path, if you go down the sponsorship route or just make it publicly known that this is what you're doing, you could have folks sponsor your 50-state run.
Denny: That thought has crossed my mind on a couple of occasions, my friend, so hopefully. I love that idea of just putting it out in the Universe again and see what happens.
Harry: Yeah man, just put it out there. Are you saving the tough ones for last? So is Alaska last on the list? Hawaii's going to be just hard geographically.
Denny: Well, Hawaii is 50, that's the only one that's been set in stone yet, just because I want to run that 50th one and just make it a huge vacation/party/Luau/whatever you want to call it. The only thing that's been decided is that Hawaii will be the 50th one, and if I happen to wind up in Hawaii before then, I'll just run a half or something, because then that won't count and then I'll still need to run my marathon there. Everything else is as the opportunity presents itself, at least at this point.
As we go along, like you said, maybe some sponsors will want me to go somewhere. Some of these races have people that come in and do presentations or do speeches and stuff the night before or at the race expo and things like that. That's something that's definitely on my radar as something that I would like to do. It's an excuse – they pay for you to come to their area and run their race. If that can kill the travel expenses and the lodging expenses and all of the race expenses that go along with it, yeah, I'll come and talk for half an hour or 45 minutes and then run the race in the morning! That would be fantastic!
Harry: It sounds like something we just need to build a strategy around. Let's look for conferences where you can go and speak about podcasting, for example.
Denny: Yeah, we need to talk to Dan and Jared and the Podcast Movement guys and be like ‘Let's not do it in Austin, Texas or in Dallas in July' because they don't have any marathons there because it's too bloody hot, but let's do it in November, and there could be a marathon there at the same time.
Harry: So you have to run an official marathon. What if you go out and you just run your 26.2?
Denny: I can't think of a good reason to go and run 26.2 miles unless it's an official marathon, to be brutally honest.
Harry: Okay, so at last you're not that die-hard. You know what's fascinated me? It's those ultra marathoners like those guys that run like 100 miles, or they run back-to-back marathons for like a month or something like that. Can you even begin to explain that mindset?
Denny: No, not really. I've actually had a lot of ultra marathoners on my podcast, which is weird because I didn't set out to do that. It seems like, for whatever reason, in the running world, there's a lot more ultra marathon podcasts than there are just regular runners or pro runners of shorter distances. Whenever I reach out to the ultra marathoners, they're like ‘Oh yeah, let's do it, I can't wait!' and I have great conversations with them, but every one of them, I'm like ‘So what possesses you?' I get to 26.2 miles and I'm like ‘I am not taking another step'. What possesses you, when you're running a 100-mile race to be like ‘Alright, 26 miles, I'm a quarter of the way done.'
How does that even..? I can't even wrap my head around it, but I do have to admit, the more I talk to them and the different people in the ultra marathon community – I think the running community itself has a bunch of awesome people, but I think the ultra marathon community is just amazing people. I still have no desire to run one of their races, but I could see myself being talked into it if I keep talking to enough of them. I either have to start being picky and not invite as many ultra marathoners onto my show, or I need to start thinking about maybe running – I don't know about 100 miles, but maybe a 50-miler at some point. It won't be any time soon, but at least I haven't shut the door on that idea yet. I just can't imagine going out. Running for 4 hours, which is about what it takes me to get through a marathon now, is enough. I can't imagine being like ‘Alright, 4 hours, half way done, keep going!'
Harry: Or a quarter of the way through.
Denny: Oh thanks. Oh yeah, 100 miles. I won't do 100 miles. Let's be honest, that's just ridiculous.
Harry: I think it's somewhat akin to I guess the folks who do extreme sports. There's some psychological aspect to it, and maybe we'll invite Nicole Walsh on some day and she can explain the psychology behind all this – our mutual friend. I think what it is is some sort of adrenaline junkie type thing, right?
Denny: Yeah. Well in some of them, I talk to them and I'm like ‘So what possesses you to want to go run for 50 miles?' And they're like ‘Well, I'm competitive, but I'm just not fast enough to win a marathon, but I'm stubborn enough to not quit when I really start to hurt, so I found that if I run further, there's fewer people that are able to maintain that faster speed. Since I don't give up and I don't slow down and I just run through the pain, I win.'
I'm guess I just don't have that mindset. I guess I'm just not wired that way.
Harry: I think, and this literally just came to me right now, what you can do, Denny, is just go back to all your shows, listen to your interviews, but then listen to them from the perspective of building a podcast business or growing a podcast and building an online business. Then you use all the words that they tell you about ‘in it for the long haul', and ‘not the short sprints'. I'm telling you man, you literally have the – I'm shitty with the title.
Denny: The running cliches are deep.
Harry: Yeah, and literally, as you're telling me them, I'm like ‘That applies to this!' It's the patience you need to do what we're doing, with building our podcasts, building our audience, trying to create a product and just making a go out of this as being our livelihood.
Denny: Oh yeah, definitely this year, one of my goals is to do some public speaking, and I feel like I can speak to pretty much any audience because I can just use running cliches. I'm a runner, and how many times have you heard someone say ‘It's a marathon, not a sprint'? Whatever industry you're in, that applies. We can just build a whole presentation off of ‘It's a marathon, not a sprint', or ‘In it for the long haul', or ‘Just don't give up, keep putting one foot in front of the other'. The cliches are ridiculous, it's unbelievable.
Harry: But I think we should say that the only people who are allowed to use those cliches from this day forward are the people who've actually fecking run a marathon, or at least a 5K or something like that. You seem some people using these running cliches and I'm like ‘Ah, I don't think you're a runner!'
Denny: Yeah, maybe that's the running snob in me, but when I hear somebody say ‘Oh man, it's a marathon, not a sprint', I'm always like ‘Have you ever run a marathon?' They're like ‘Well, no.'
I feel like as men, the one thing we can never say is ‘It was as difficult or as painful as childbirth'.
Denny: Because we have no fricking idea.
Denny: And I kind of feel the same way about the marathon thing. My Mom has said that a few times, she's said ‘Oh, it's like a marathon, building a business' or ‘It's a marathon doing this', or ‘It's a marathon doing that'. I'm like ‘Mom, you have no idea. I love you to death, but you have no idea what a marathon is like'. You say it's like a marathon, but you have no idea what a marathon's like.
Harry: Yeah, I'm starting to build my running capabilities back up. Whenever we get to the running part in cross-fit, I'm just like ‘Oh man'. I ran cross-country in High School, which was obviously a long time ago, but certain people, when you say ‘running', even if it's only like ‘Go run a mile or two miles', it's just this sense of dread and foreboding that comes over them, like ‘No! I'll go lift some more weight, anything but please don't make me run.'
I remember I actually applied for the New York City marathon when I was living in Atlanta, don't ask me why. It was literally on a whim. I was like ‘Eh, it's a lottery', and then they picked me and I was like ‘Holy shit, I'm in! Uh, okay..' so I just started downloading all of these marathon training guides and I was like ‘Okay, here we go'. I remember that first day, I went out and I ran like a mile or half a mile and I was just panting. I was just ‘Oh my God, I'm not going to do it, this is horrible'. And then you fast forward, I'm at the point where I'm running 7-8 miles in one day and it's amazing because you think you can't possibly even run half a mile without just passing out, and it's amazing to see what the body's capable of with consistent effort over a sustained period of time.
Denny: Oh yeah. Our bodies are incredible. What the human body is capable of doing if you treat it well, if you put good things into it and you work it in a an intelligent manner. Don't try to do too much too soon, but let it build and adapt over time. Whether it's running 100 miles or Strong Man stuff, listing massive amounts of weights and just doing amazing physical feats, or flexibility things – contortionists. The things that the human body can do and still just function normally afterwards is incredible, as long as you're willing to put in the effort. It's just like with anything else.
All those ‘marathon, not a sprint' metaphors, it's all the same. If you put in that effort and you train and you're in it for the long haul, our bodies can do great things, our minds can do great things. We are capable of building great things, it's just a matter of sticking to it, and that's where we fall short so often. It's the sticking to it part.
Harry: Yeah, and obviously on that note, I did not stick to it! [Laughs].
Harry: No, what happened is I started traveling for work, and for some reason I had a 10-day retreat in the middle of the Colorado mountains. It was a silent retreat, so it was just crazy.
Denny: That's the best place to go run!
Harry: Yeah. I actually did that. I went to visit a friend in Denver and she was like ‘Oh, let's go running' and I literally ran from here, I don't know, a couple of hundred feet, and I was like ‘Wait a minute, this altitude thing is real.'
Denny: There's no oxygen up here, what's going on?
Harry: That's why I'm amazed when I'm in Denver or something like that and I see those bicyclists going up the mountain. I'm just like ‘Wow, those lungs are literally prepared for anything at that point.'
Denny: Oh yeah, just how efficient they are at harvesting the oxygen out of the air, it's amazing.
Harry: So you were talking about something like your mother or your grandmother was talking about it being a marathon and it jogged a thought – do you give a thought yourself to the mix of the folks that you invite? Like a split male/female perspective?
Denny: To be on the show?
Denny: Not really. I'm very equal opportunity at this point as far as a lot of the times I'll start thumbing through old issues of Runner's World or the Running Times or just old running magazines and I'll be like ‘Oh yeah, okay, I'll reach out to this person'. Sometimes it's the real popular people like the Mebs and the Shalane Flanagans and some of the people that are on TV all the time, but then a lot of the time it's a lot of up-and-comers and it's like ‘Oh yeah, this would be a cool person to have'. They're probably not at that level yet – they probably handle their own Twitter account, which is a big criteria. If they handle their own Twitter account, you can probably get in touch with them through Twitter – or at least, that's what I've found so far.
Harry: That's funny.
Denny: Those people are the ones that I aim for, but male/female, whatever. Older/younger/newer – it doesn't matter to me. Like I said, all I'm after is that you self-identify as a runner. I don't care how fast you are, how far you run. We'll start talking about running and we'll let the conversation go. Sometimes we stay on running the whole time, and sometimes we ditch the running bug real quick. Just the first few minutes are about running and then all of a sudden, we're off on a tangent and we may never get back to running, and that's okay too. It's the natural way the conversation went in that situation.
Harry: It's something I've tried to make a point of as well. I talk to podcasters, so naturally you think all we're going to do is geek out on microphones and podcasting and Skype problems and #firstworldpodcasterproblems, but I like it when we go off on some crazy tangent. I was talking to Steve Stewart of MoneyPlan SOS and he let me know that he used to be a DJ and he started rattling off these vinyl records that I was incredibly surprised that he actually knew about. We just started talking about that and I think towards the end, we finally got back into podcasting, which was funny.
Denny: Yeah, if you just let the conversation go, it's amazing what rabbit holes you can fall down. I think at least most audiences don't mind the fact that you went somewhere natural. You didn't force it to stay in one place, you didn't force it to go somewhere, you just kind of let it go.
Harry: Yeah. So I'll try to bring this puppy home in some cohesive fashion. You're close to 50 episodes now, right?
Denny: I am just past 50. I think I'm at 56-57, something like that right now. Since this year started, I've gone to 3 episodes a week, so that changes things. It speeds things up a little bit when you add a couple extra episodes.
Harry: Yeah. From a whole different bunch of perspectives, because I'm just thinking about – I do mind sort of weekly, and that goes with the inherent challenges. What made you decide? Three is more frequent than what you were doing before, right?
Denny: Yeah, it originally started off as bi-weekly, and I guess what I've done this year, one of my goals, whether you want to call it a New Year's Resolution or whether you just want to call it a goal, or whatever, I call it a resolution because I started on the first of the year. I don't get caught up in whether it's a resolution or a goal. But it's to post a new piece of content on my website every day for the year, which is a big undertaking, but you batch it out. It's like one real blog post and it's a couple of show notes from podcast episodes and it's a YouTube video. You kind of break it up and it's not as big of a challenge as it first sounds like, but one of the things I decided to do is every Friday, do a real real short post, like 200 words or something like that – I call it a Quick Tip. It's just a running tip.
I have my regular interview shows on Monday and Thursday. On Fridays, I do a Quick Tip podcast episode that's like 8 minutes, so I kind of take what I have in those 200 words and just elaborate on it a little bit more. It just adds an extra thing. One of the pieces of feedback I got was that it's cool hearing these stories from the different runners that I'm talking to, but it's be nice to get some tips – how do you train, how do you do this, how do you do that, how do you stay injury-free, some real tips from these folks. Like I said, I didn't really want to force the conversation, I wanted to let things go naturally, and I was like ‘Well how can I incorporate some tips more into the episodes' and I just decided that I would add an episode.
It is three shows a week, but it's really still just two, it's just a matter of me creating a 10-minute audio file to go with the short blog post on Fridays, but it does add up to an extra show, which makes it a third show for the week.
Harry: How's it been going so far? I know we're only 3 weeks into January, but do you feel the pressure to produce that content yet, or do you feel like you plan it out enough so it's not too stressful?
Denny: I think I'm kind of right in the middle of that spectrum. My biggest problem so far has been making sure that I have enough podcast episodes to make sure I always have those two episodes a week, and planning ahead. It's like every time I think I'm ahead of the game and I've already got next week's shows ready to go, and then somebody cancels that interview and somebody else forgets. All of a sudden it's like I'm scrambling again for next week, as opposed to having next week already taken care of and worrying about the week after.
As far as the other posts that I can really control everything about, it hasn't been that bad yet, but like you said, we're three weeks deep so there's still a lot of time for that to build on me. The biggest trick is just making sure that you've got as much stuff planned ahead of time. Even if you don't have everything created weeks ahead of time, at least have a schedule. I've kind of got my week schedule as far as Sunday is always this type of post, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, whatever, but really having a subject for that. Sundays I do a list post, so it's ‘Top 10 Reasons' or ‘Top 12 Reasons' or whatever, but make sure I know what I'm talking about this Sunday, and what I'm talking about next Sunday, and trying to keep those at least a month in advance. Even if I'm not writing the post a month in advance, it's at least having an idea going into it. Like I said, so far, everything except for the podcasts has been pretty easy because I can control it and I can create that stuff any old time, as opposed to worrying about lining up with other people to schedule an interview and record a podcast, and then getting that all together in time to go out.
Literally, I recorded tomorrow's episode this afternoon, so tomorrow morning I'll be putting it together and releasing it tomorrow to make sure I stay on track. But then I'm already good for Friday, Saturday and Sunday because I can take care of that ahead of time.
Harry: So you're doing weekends as well?
Denny: Yeah. The goal is 365, although I even put into one of my early blog posts in the year saying that we set these big resolutions and we set these big goals – whether it's running, whether it's business, whatever – for ourselves and then we try to hold ourselves. It's like if we're not perfect, we're a failure.
Honestly, if I end up with 355 blog posts this year, that's still a pretty damn good year.
Harry: Oh hells yeah.
Denny: Ideally, I'd love to be 365 posts for the year, but I'm not perfectionist enough to be like man, if I miss January 27th, I'm just done and I'm not worrying about it anymore. If I miss the 27th, alright, big deal. Move on, next day. 28th – what's the post for the 28th? And then keep it going.
Harry: Yeah, it's like the people who do the diet or try a new diet and they have one bad day and then they just completely ditch the whole plan.
Denny: Exactly. If you are going to measure yourself against being perfect on whatever your goal is, you're never going to be successful. But if it's like ‘I'm going to do the best that I can, and 99 times out of 100 or 9 times out of 10 (or however you want to break it down), I'm going to be successful', that's still pretty darn good and it's probably better than you were when you started. That's my take on a blog post every day, or some type of post every day. I'll aim for perfection, but if I'm just pretty darn good, then that's pretty darn good. I can handle that.
Harry: Yeah, I think when it comes to December 2015, I think you'll look back and be pretty proud of what you've accomplished so far. In that vein, as you're looking back with 50+ episodes, if you had to pick one thing, or maybe two, what would you say you're most proud of when you look back over the past year?
Denny: Man. I think for me, it's doing it. There are two ends of the scale in terms of starting something and doing it; I have this great idea but I wait til everything's perfect to get started, and I'm on the opposite scale where it's like I've got an idea and I dive in right away before I'm fricking ready. Before I have any infrastructure in place, I'm already doing it. I think I kind of did that with this podcast. I remember setting a goal for launching this podcast on July 1st and I set that up in like May. It wanted to have 15 episodes in the can and I wanted to have reached out to this many people and blah blah. By the middle of June, I recorded my first episode. Needless to say, I didn't have 15 in the can. I think I had like 3 in the can, and then you launch with 3 and all of a sudden you've got 0 in the can. I do that all the time. It's like I'm going to go and I don't set everything up. I think that's okay too. It's maybe not ideal, but we don't live in a perfect world, so it's okay to get started and maybe get a little bit ahead of yourself. How many people don't take action and wish that they had?
I guess I'd rather take the action and start the podcast or dive into doing 365 posts in the year, and maybe not be as far ahead as I would want to be, but once you're in the pool, you figure out how to swim. I've put it out there, I'm going to do 365 and so far I'm we're recording this, I'm 21 for 21, so we'll just try to keep it going as long as we can.
Harry: You've provided a couple of tweetables already, so thanks for that.
Denny: Absolutely, I aim to please.
Harry: It's always nice to wrap up an interview on a very inspirational note. Just from what I've seen, I wasn't there in the beginning, but I think half way through your journey, I'm really impressed with your evolution so far. I think you already have that mindset of being a dedicated runner for as many years as you have been, and I think if you apply those principles to what you have in front of you in terms of building your business and building the podcast, I literally see nothing but good things ahead for you.
Denny: Yeah, well that's the plan, just keep putting that one foot in front of the other until you can't do that anymore. Until you get to the finish line, I guess, to keep with the running cliches that we talked about earlier.
Harry: [Laughs]. I just knew you couldn't resist a couple more running cliches.
Denny: You set me up. You put it on a tee, I had to do it. I had no choice.
Harry: So where's the best place for people to track you down? We're just going to keep the running cliches up until we drive this into the ground.
Denny: Yeah, track me down! You can definitely chase me down or you can find me at www.DizRuns.com, which is the main hub online. The podcast is there, the blog is there, everything I'm doing is there. I've mentioned before that I love Twitter, and Twitter's the same: @DizRuns. Those are the two best places. I'm DizRuns pretty much everywhere on social media, but Twitter is my favorite place to hang out. If you're looking for me, that's the best place to come find me.
Harry: If he's not there, then he's out on his 7am 7-mile run.
Denny: Yeah, then I'm actually out running, exactly.
Harry: Alright Denny, man, thanks so much. Hopefully the audience got a little bit more insight into the mind of Denny Krahe and had fun with this conversation.
Denny: That's the plan, thanks for having me, Harry, it's been a pleasure.