Liz Covart Interview Transcription
Jessica Rhodes Interview Transcription

Harry Duran:
Welcome back to Podcast Junkies aka the podcasters' voice aka the show where we search out interesting voices in podcasting and get them to kick back their heels and talk about their shows and quite honestly whatever else is on their mind. This is episode 44 and we're talking to Corey Coates. Corey is the founder of Podfly, a podcast production service, but for Podcast Junkies like myself, he's also known as the co-host and co-creator of The Podcast Producers.

This was a ten-part podcast series that came out, I think, now a couple of months ago and what's interesting about it is Corey and Jessica released the entire season as lump sum episode list all together, so everything at one time, an it's the Netflix format, if you're familiar with that and you get to binge listen to all of the episodes at once, which I promptly did and lost about a day and half worth of productivity, but it was fine.

It was well worth it and they ended up interviewing, I think it was close to 20-30 podcasters and so there's snippets of all their voices within the ten episodes and they brought it into ten topics and it was just a fascinating take on the state of podcasting now and with a production background in radio, it's so surprise that the episode sounded great. There was custom music, there was intros and outros and lead ins to the stories. It just really, really sounded like an episode of NPR times ten, which is cool.

So, I really liked it and the podcasting community fell in love with it and we get to talk about that and we get to talk about the fact that there is a season two on the way and Corey is just one of those guys that I love chatting to because he's a free spirit and just says whatever the hell is on his mind and so probably an explicit warning needs to be slapped on here and there. We cover some of the common radio terms that people in the industry know but people in podcasting seem to butcher time in and time out, so I'm glad this is actually the first episode where we get to review what those are and define them so that going forward people can't say they don't what a stab, a liner, a bumper is, etcetera.

So, we talk about our love of the NPR format and why that quality and that level of quality is important that it's being brought into the podcasting realm and one of the things that he said that was really important is that you can't fake audio quality and you can't fake your talent. I thought that was really, really fantastic takeaways and something that we all need to keep in mind as podcasters and listeners and lovers of podcasts, you know, you're all holding something to a higher standard. So, again, these go long and it's only because we just enjoy talking to each other. So, enjoy my conversation with Corey.

So, Corey Coates thank you for joining me on Podcast Junkies.

Corey Coates:
Yeah man, this is like, this is kind of overdue, right?

Harry:
This is long overdue.

Corey:
I think you promised I could be on your show, I don't know, five-six months ago and then every time I email you, you just avoid me. I don't know what's up with that.

Harry:
Yeah, I got Marc Maron coming through and I had to bump.

Corey:
Obama stopped through and you're like, I got bumped.

Harry:
So, your thoughts on the Obama, Marc Maron as a seminal moment in podcasting?

Corey:
I don't know. I don't want to make a big deal of it, but I think it is good, because again, anything that raises sort of public awareness of the medium I think is important. Anything that more main stream people now that podcasting is legit and kind of here to stay, I think is critical, so I think that helps a lot and gosh, when you consider that they hit close to a million downloads of that episode in a day. I think that really shows how wide the market truly is.

Harry:
I think it was crazy, because Libsyn I think posted, I think I saw it in Facebook or Instagram, one of those places, they actually posted the stats and it broke the record for most downloaded episode, I think it was.

Corey:
Yeah, something like 725,000 downloads. Now, like as podcasters, we know that doesn't mean that there were 725,000 people went into their iTunes app and subscribed to Marc's podcast. It was that, you know, a lot people, we hit the link, went to the site, pressed play on the player. That's what it really means, yeah.

Harry:
And so, yeah, I think overall it's good, because when you think about getting into the mainstream, I don't know if you're a fan of the show as well on IFC, Maron.

Corey:
No, you know what? Honestly I've never listened to his show.

Harry:
It's interesting because you see that the podcast environment and the podcast show is almost like another character on the TV show and it's just interesting, because he's in his garage and he's podcasting. I think he's got the same mic you've got right now.

Corey:
Yeah, yeah. He's on the 7B, right.

Harry:
So, it's fun to watch on TV that someone is podcasting.

Corey:
Yeah, that's the cool thing. I went to, I followed the link to the pictures of it, right, and that was really the cool part where you realize he's just like anybody else. I mean, he's a dude, unshaven, in his messy garage, you know, with a mixer in the corner and a bunch of stuff all over his desk and on the other side of the table is the leader of the free world. It's kind of trippy to see, but you know what Harry, it's funny, if you go into a lot of established radio studios, it looks a lot like that too. These things are disasters.

Harry:
So, your background is radio as well, right?

Corey:
Yeah. I did a lot of audio editing. So, I was a musician professionally for years and once I got kind of off the road and I was sick of, you know, living in a van and living in hotel rooms and just not making any money and getting STD tests every other week. There was a point where I gotta get behind the desk in some fashion. So, for me, it was the recording desk and at that time there was really good cash in doing audio engineering for radio stations. A lot of post production, a lot of commercial radio production. So, I got pretty heavy into that industry and it was great, because you can work in your pajamas and you could drink tea and you could work overnight and you could submit stuff to radio stations and make some pretty good back, so that was kind of my background.

Harry:
So, did you work at a bunch of different radio stations or was there one where you spent most of your time?

Corey:
No, I worked for an independent production house, right. So, these guys had a lot of radio stations as their clients. I did a lot of work with a company that's still going right now and in Canada, it's called Overnight Radio. So basically, they would do overnight radio commercials and spots and specials and things for radio stations. So, they would send us the work and we would go ahead and do it. So, it's interesting. This was back in, gosh, like 2008-2006, back when, you know, VAs and virtual companies and stuff didn't exist. So, these guys were real pioneers in the space and was actually a super inspiration for some of the stuff I'm doing today.

Harry:
Is there a, do you have memorable moments from your time doing the audio production and radio or memorable shows that you edited?

Corey:
Maybe not so much, because, it's funny, like a lot of traditional radio, we did a lot of FM radio commercials as well. Some of them I would voice, some of them I would get all the imaging and stabs and stingers and stuff and there's like an episode of Family Guy where you see Stewie and Brian are at like a fair and there's a booth there and it's one of the local radio stations and it has all of the absurd stingers and stabs and sound effects and all the things, right, and the fart noises and stuff. Yeah, that kind of over the top crap that you hear on FM radio, but producing stuff was hilarious, because you're always going to how close to the end can I get without being like satirical and without being mocking radio and the closer to the edge you would get, the more the stations loved the work. They're like, ‘this is just killer stuff.' It's like..

Harry:
Yeah.

Corey:
And it got so silly. I did a little bit of work in FM radio as well, but you know, DJing was of no interest to me, because you became kind of a clock jock is what they were called, which basically meant, you'd say, you know, 3:04, London, we're going to play some collective soul and that's it. That's your job and it's like, 3:57, London's best rock, here comes a little bit of winger and then you play a fart noise and a sound effect and then you do a line of coke and you wait for 20 minutes and you're back on the air. It's just, this is a dumb business, I don't want to be in this.

Harry:
I think you just created the intro for this episode. So, I mean, are you saying they don't take themselves too seriously or they know what they're doing is so monotonous they have to have some fun with it.

Corey:
I think that's part of it is that they recognize how absurd it is and now, you know, they're doing what's called live to tape. So, radio stations are less and less allowing DJs to actually be on live radio. They're just recording those things. They are recording setups for tunes. They're recording the time and they’re being put into an automation deck. In many cases now if you go into an FM or AM radio station, the only guy in there is the IT guy and maybe an engineer. Everybody is at home. They're pre-recording, they're using ISDN lines to send it in the station. They're basically sent scripts to record them. They put them in and then your face is on the side of a bus. So, the whole thing is kind of a joke, honestly.

Harry:
So, what do you see as the future? I mean, a lot of people like to prognosticate about where AM and FM is dying a slow death, you know, one is listening to satellite radio. So, having worked in the business, you have any thoughts about where we're headed?

Corey:
I don't know. It's the car. The car is going to continue to be the future of radio if they evolve into that space, but again, the ubiquity now of our mobile devices, our ability to blue-tooth connect them quickly to the car, means that the media that we want to consume when we want to consume it is super portable and transferable across platforms.

So, for me, like, for example, you know, I like my Spotify, I love my podcasts, I love my audio books, and because of my Apple TV and my iPhone and my iPad or even in getting in a rental car right now, all I do is I just continue to play whatever it is I'm normally playing in my life. The last thing I'm doing, man, is getting into a car and surfing the dial to find what's happening on the radio. I mean, honestly who gives a shit, really, what the next top 40 tune is.

Harry:
Yeah, it's a joke, because I do the same thing. I have been traveling a lot recently and like you said, the first thing I look for is the USB connector so I can, you know, worst case scenario I have to connect my headphones, I guess that's #firstworldproblems. What? No USB in my rental so I can connect my iPhone so I don't have to listen to radio. I mean, there's never any, even if it didn't have it, obviously, I'd just connect my headset and just listen that way.

Corey:
I mean, here's the thing though. I mean, we're talking about different segments of radio. For example, if we're looking at the NPR genre where there's storytelling, there's narrative, there's good information being brought forward, I think a lot of AM radio still has a great market, no question about it, and I love, especially like in Canada we don't have NPR, we have the CBC, which is very similar, but when I go to the states and I get into a car, I actually really enjoy dialing into NPR and listen to it. I think it's soothing, I think it's informative, it's interesting, it's close mic, they are all on 7Bs, so I kind of dig the tech of it, but I think there's always a future for that, but those companies that are embracing the podcasting technology and the other means of distribution and not caring so much about how people are getting the content, but that they're getting the content, those are the ones that will survive.

The folks, for example, who are running things like Clear Channel and are just taking everything and boiling it down to what is likely to be the most listened to stuff while you're holding a purse at Forever 21 and your girlfriend is in the change room. There's no future in that. That's a mess.

Harry:
It seems like all those algorithms and those ways of measuring audiences and trying to predict what folks want to listen to is using some formula, it's probably 30-40 years old.

Corey:
Yeah, I had a great conversation with Tom Webster over at Edison Research and this is what these guys do. I mean, they put together the stats and they know what they're doing, no question about it, but at the same time, everyone in radio will tell you the listenership is still a best guess, okay, it's based on some survey information, some fair data extrapolation and a bunch of statistic stuff that I don't understand, but I can tell you this, I know, like, when we would go on air and they'd say, you know, we have 50,000 people listening. Mmm, maybe, but you know what, the four-year-old kid in the car seat, I don't count him as my listener or, you know, Kathy who is in the office waiting for four o'clock and the thing is just kind of playing way in the background. I don't consider her my audience, either.

So, when we're talking about listener, I think we have to consider engagement and radio has always struggled with finding what we consider true engagement and that's where podcasting really crosses the threshold because a listener obviously is choosing to consume this. I'm going and fetching it and putting it into my life and paying attention to it, you know, so that's a huge, huge difference. Radio is still very much a passive experience for most people.

Harry:
I think obviously there's going to be a technology solution waiting for those people that say what's important as far as the next steps is that two way communication where you listen to an episode and then immediately upon listening or midstream, you're saying, wow, I want to communicate this out right away or right now we can do some sharing and it sends people back to a website depending on which podcast player you're using, but I think there's a lot of room for improvement there and I talked briefly to one of the guys who founded a company called Raur, I don't know if you've heard of them. Raur?

Corey:
No.

Harry:
It's a new company and they're trying to do something where it's sort of like a hybrid between Clamer and a pod catcher, but you can midstream a share of the contents of a podcast episode. So, I talked to them, I gave them some suggestions, maybe I'll send them your way as well, but I think that's sort of the holy grail, because like, we're big in terms of sharing stuff in the moment, right, because if we say, okay, later on when I get home or, you know, we send ourselves a reminder, for a lot of episodes or things that are so impractical for me. I actually write it down and send myself an email and I want to give credit to the host. I want to give credit to the guest and then the point that they made, sometimes it's so powerful, I just really, really want everyone to know where it came from, you know, proper link to the episode and all that, but I'm going out of my way to do that, so if we don't make it easier, I think we're losing an opportunity there.

Corey:
I think that's one huge component, kind of, because we're such a social creature now, because of the social networks and the way they've made us think about media, but you know, on the plus side of radio, and this is one of the biggest lacks, I think, we see in podcast media and what we consider maybe amateur radio is that these guys have solved a lot of problems very, very early on that podcasters for some reasons are trying to re-fix and you just can't fake a couple of things that radio has done really well and that is one, audio quality, right, is huge.

Now, fortunately podcasters are starting to up their game because good equipment is getting cheap and also they're starting to understand the craft a little bit more, because the more NPRs there are in iTunes, the more people want to sound like them, that's really good, but the other thing that you can't fake is talent. I mean, if you suck as a host, you suck! No mic is going to make you interesting or compelling or a talented interviewer.

So, that's kind of critical I think a lot of people have to step back and go, we got to give respect to the radio in that these guys are trained broadcast professionals who have devoted a lot of time to make it sound as easy as they do and podcasters, we know it when we start doing our first couple of shows, we flip on the mic and we think, this is probably easy, I'm just having a conversation and you listen back and this is horrible. This is drags. This isn't interesting. We have seven listeners now and then we podfade and that's kind of it. You know, radio, it's an all in-game and they don't put anybody on the air unless it's going to be good and if they're not good, they're trained, we make sure that they get good.

Harry:
It's interesting because as podcasters, we tend to pay attention to the folks who are doing right and who we admire, you know, folks like Terry Gross, we listen to Marc Maron, Adam Carolla, whoever our favorite is. Joe Rogan, you know, people watch Charlie Rose, Larry King, just – we're fascinated and a lot of those tend to skew towards the interview style, but I think, like you said to your point, there's a lot of lessons to be learned from folks that have been doing this, regardless of the medium, right, the interviewing skill is a skill whether you're doing it in person, on a panel, on the radio or on TV, and it's something we need to be paying attention to.

Corey:
Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things that has been taken out of the equation, which is good, is we don't sort of radio-fy our voices as much as radio people did. We don't exaggerate our conversations to that degree.

One of my favorite podcasts still today is Alec Baldwin's Here's the Thing. Love that guy, love his voice, love his guests, love his interview, love his feel, but he's not trying to be on the radio while he's talking to his guests. You know, he's just having great casual friendly awesome engaging conversations and podcasters, that's kind of the meet of what we're doing, is we're keeping it super real and very relatable, so I think that there's kind of a balance that needs to be struck between the professionalism of broadcast radio and the casual side of podcasting that attracts the listener in the first place.

Harry:
Yeah, the important thing there for podcasters is that we don't have to unlearn the radio, at least the broadcasting voice piece, because like you said, we don't know anything else but how to be causal in our conversations. There's going to be a need for a happy medium there.

Corey:
It's tough, I mean, I just started working, I'm producing this show right now and it is being broadcast on AM stations in Chicago as well as in podcast, so it's kind of a re-purposed job and we do this for a couple of radio stations and it's tough man, because I started working with these program directors and these operation directors and they send in their show clocks and we put in all the imaging and stabs and the segments and it's like, it's tough man, because I gotta write them back and go, you know, you have 40 liners in 30 minutes of material, do you know how absurd that comes across to a listener?

It's tough, because those guys are still pretty much locked into their world. They just don't see the value or – let me put it this way, they don't seem to trust the listener when it comes to long-form content, you know, they don't think that we have the attention span to listen to just a good conversation for an hour, but we do.

Harry:
Yeah, and I was thinking about this the other day, because my show tends to run over an hour and I've thought long and hard whether or not I want to reign it in, but I don't, I sort of associate it with just a real world conversation and I wouldn't interrupt the conversation with a friend that was just getting good just because we're at some mark that supposedly we need to hit to keep the listener engaged and I always go back to the Joe Rogan three hour podcast and I've been listening to the Wolf Den recently and those shows typically over an hour. It's just, I'm engaged, and I'm going to keep listening and if I get to where I'm getting to and I need to pause, I'll just pick it up later.

Corey:
Yep, well, you're invested in the personalities as well. You know, I've listened to a couple of shows, my guilty pleasures are, I still listen to Back to Work, you know, with Dan Benjamin and Merlin Mann for about 40 minutes every show, they're not talking about anything. They either have a cold or they're talking about comic books or, you know, eventually maybe there's something that happens that has something to do with productivity, but it's because I'm so invested in them as personalities that I enjoy having them in my life. Same idea, I listen to your show, I like putting it on my speakers while I'm doing some other things around my studio or in my apartment and for me the length of the show is irrelevant, it's over when it's over and you're right, I can just hit pause if I've got something else to do.

Harry:
I appreciate that. That plug was not planned. So, actually, what I wanted to cover is something that has probably come up since the start of the show and I've had folks who have been in radio for their nervous careers who are now podcasting and it's funny because there's references made to some of the terms that are used and now that you've mentioned a couple of them already, I always want to make sure that the listener knows what we're talking about and I don't want to assume they know. So, you mentioned stabs, stingers, and liners.

Corey:
And bumpers and imaging.

Harry:
Let's, once and for all, for new podcasters, old podcasters, and folks who just continue to butcher these terms, because we don't know, give us the quick run down on what each of these things mean.

Corey:
Alright, yeah, this is pretty Google-able, but you know, it's pretty easy.

Harry:
Podcasters don't Google. We just listen to other podcasts for our information, you know that.

Corey:
Okay, yeah. Liners are a single liner, right. Something that's going to go in between and they're usually professionally voiced. So, for example, if you have two segments and you want to introduce the segment, it's kind of weird to introduce it yourself, you know, it's like here's me doing this. You want to have a liner.

So, it's usually just a one line that's being read by whoever your voice actor is for the show. Usually you have a consistent voice actors and in these liners what they might do underneath it is something called imaging and the imaging all the sound effects that go with it, right, so sho-sho-sho, now Harry's going to talk to Corey about blah! And then that's – so you have a liner over top of the imaging. When you've done all of that, what you've created is a stab and that basically stabs the listener and says, okay, now we're introducing this next part.

A bumper is usually just some sort of music or transition that's being used in between parts to lengthen together, you know, I just completed a project with somebody and they have a lot of different kind of disparate segments. What we do is we use these sort of bumpers to get from one part to the other. So, it's pretty straightforward stuff, but you know.

Harry:
Would a bumper also break up a long piece of content if you've got, let's say you've got an interview going over an hour and you said, wait, I need to let the listener breathe for a second here, I have heard of these – some podcasts do that.

Corey:
Yeah. Like for a example I used to do a lot of live radio. I did some call-in radio, which I really love and I actually miss the live call-in radio is pretty awesome stuff and the bumper served as having this transitional music that would fade into the end of the segment. So, for example, I'd be on air and the producer would come on and give me an in-ear 60 second warning, right, by just saying 60 seconds, which meant that I had 60 seconds to wrap up this conversation to get to the break.

The break is called a post, okay, so there's this post that you can't hit, okay. So, if you hit the post, the producer is going to let you know, if you go over the post, it's too bad, you sound like an idiot, because you got cut off. So, it was actually super challenge and it made you a much, much better presenter, because you'd get that 60 warning, you'd learned how to wrap up a conversation or a piece of a conversation and the music would be fading up into your ear and then you get the 30 second warning.

If it's felt like for the producer, I was on the producer end, I loved doing this; if it felt like in the 30 second span this guy is going to hit the post, you'll give him the 15, 10, the 5, and then from 5 you count down 4, 3, 2, right, so I would have these hosts that would leave you on the edge of your seat that would actually mess with you to make you feel like I'm going to hit that post and I'm going to screw you on this segment, but man, they would get out like just a millisecond before and then the stab would come in and it'll be holy crap, that sounded amazing! There was just something about that feeling, that energy, that you just can't duplicate in a podcast. You can't do it. So, for me, that was an exciting part of doing radio that is really, really lacking in our space.

Harry:
Did you cover stingers?

Corey:
Yeah. Yeah, so stingers again are these kind of sound effects, right, these lasers and all these weird stuff and it's funny, because we all ended up using pretty much the same sound effects on voices and the same echos and it was just, you have these templates that you set and that you use that are pretty well known in the business, but it's funny, because they sound really kind of cool once you get them going and I used to do a show for about three years and I made quite good money out of it, actually. It was called This Week in Costa Rica and it was a live call-in radio show that we would do 4 12-minute segments.

We had 4 phone lines in the studio and I had a 800 line plus one in Los Angeles, one in New York, and one in Chicago, and then I had a stack system phone line and people could call into the show. I could bring my guests in on the phone and everything was segmented and produced and you know what man, it was just a trip. It was so much fun to know at 2 o'clock on Monday, I get on the air.

We flip on the switch, the callers call in, it was just really, really amazing and the reason why, again, we had it all segmented is because at 3 o'clock the next show comes on. So, I can't run long, you know, the next show is going to happen in the broadcast schedule and I can't run long on my segments because there's paid advertisers that have bought those slots and some of them were mine, like they're my spots, so if I get that spot or if I go over the post and I go short on that commercial, I ain't getting paid, so there was an element to it that brought an energy to it that I thought was really fascinating and we re-purposed it as a podcast and it translated very well, because people thought, oh man, this is a live radio show. I gotta tune into this thing and I gotta call in, which created by its very nature a super engaged audience.

Harry:
I've heard some podcasts and recently where they sort of mimic that approach and so you'll hear them actually say, okay, we'll be back after this break and it sounds weird, because you know, I'm not going anywhere. Where are you going? Can't you just hang around and keep talking? So, it seems like sometimes some of that is a bit forced and maybe old habits die hard, but you know, what are your thoughts on trying to apply that format into podcasting?

Corey:
There was one thing that I liked about it. You know, I used to have three ongoing podcasts that were very, very different, but super popular and with each of those three shows, I had it exactly tight to the hour. It was one hour period and I got a lot of feedback from people saying they loved it, because they knew exactly what they were invested in every single time they downloaded the show even to a point where people loved it because, you know, their commute was x amount of minutes. They knew where they are in the commute and in the podcast and it was just super reliable, so I liked that constraint, that's the other kind of cool thing about radio is that it creates these artificial constraints or real constraints on time that forces creativity.

You know, you don't have the liberty of just going long and boring the listener, you gotta get it good and you gotta get it within the time frame. I think there's power within that, but to fake that you're being constrained, you're right, it's kind of like, I'm talking to a hairbrush in a cardboard box in my room pretending that I have a radio show, you know?

Harry:
Well, these are, you know, I don't remember which one it was, but I know it was folks who a history in radio, so I think maybe it's just the function of old habits dying hard and I understand, it's interesting and like I said, I guess that its still sort of a wild west where we're all trying to figure out, you know, some people will tell you to keep it under 45 minutes, some people will tell you have strict format for your segments and make good use of the liners and the stabs and the bumpers and all that and I think what's happening sometimes is what I've noticed is some of the NPR folks are literally just moving their content over to podcasting, but not adding anything new and granted, they sound amazing and the audio quality is through the roof, but it's – they're not, I think someone in a Facebook group recently asked who innovating and podcasting and someone mentioned like folks like Serial and Startup and someone countered, well, do they sound amazing, yes. Are they innovating? No, because they're just doing the same thing they would have done on public radio.

Corey:
I mean, to be fair, the quality of podcasting is iterative and it's proven across the board, but I don't know what and maybe this is why no one has innovative. I don't know what could be innovate in the space, because ultimately it's talk radio on the internet, so, you know, to do the narrative form like Serial, you're right. I mean, that's just the good old fashion NPR story telling that they've been doing for 50 years. I just don't know where the innovation could come in. It's no different I think, Harry, than saying, where are the big innovators in blogging? It's like, well, what do you mean? I mean, it's people writing. How could you really innovate the space? I don't get that.

So, I get, yeah, there's best practices to a degree that people find effective, but I throw up in my mouth a little bit when I hear people go on Facebook groups and say, you gotta do this and this is the best way to do that, and this is what I've been doing that's successful and it's like, mm, okay, good for you, but I know some of the most popular podcasts out there do none of those things and they have hundreds and thousands of listeners, making tons of money, and super loyal following, so I'm not sure where the two are reconciling each other. I think there's a lot of guys who are coming in and saying they've got all the answers, because they're kind of making them up, but they're saying it with an authoritative voice.

Harry:
Yeah, sort of the squeaky wheel getting the oil.

Corey:
Yeah. I've had, I just recently got an email from somebody telling me that, for example, I did a show called The Podcast Producers and the email was, why I have to take the word ‘the' out of the title for iTunes SEO. It's like, look, if you were the programer of the search algorithm of iTunes and you're emailing me that suggestion, I'm down man, it's like thanks, dude. That's an awesome tip, but if you're just a dude on Facebook who is like, all of a sudden has these marketing solutions and somehow knows the Apple secret sauce, you know, I'm really not interested.

Harry:
That's funny. That world of like online marketers and podcasters who have been doing it forever just for the love of podcasting, you know, there's a lot of that happening where they're cringing when they even hear some of these terms that the online marketers use as far as tips and I know there's value and some lessons to be learned, but to your point, what you did with that show, and we'll talk about it in a second, what's more important is the fact that this was something that you wanted to create not because you wanted to be found through a search algorithms, but because it was something that you wanted to put together to express your love of what you see happening now in podcasting.

Corey:
Yeah. I mean, look, beware of anybody who both points out your problem and has the solution for sale, you know, and that's what a lot of these folks are. You know, they are the guys who tell you need carpeting and then show up the next day and say why don't you own a vacuum? It's like, you're not helping me at all here.

Harry:
There's a bit of Saul Goodman in there.

Corey:
Yeah and you know what? I don't, I honestly don't give a shit. The reason why, for example, that podcast was made is exactly what you said. It's like, yeah, there's a little bit of ROI, yeah, there's the business return because we did it, but at the same time, it's like, I just love podcasting. I talk to awesome podcasters and I think it's important that the stories that they're telling get arranged and told. So, it was a passion project all the way through and the folks that are telling me that I did wrong with it, thanks. I guess.

Harry:
Thanks but no thanks.

Corey:
Right. We're good here.

Harry:
So, let's talk about the origins of The Podcast Producers. I thought it was fascinating. I love these Netflix models where we've introduced now the term binge listening as well as binge watching to the lexicon.

Corey:
Yeah, that was actually really part of the strategy when we put it together. You know, Jessica Rhodes, her and I became fast friends and we do a lot of business together, because we have different service lines that both work well within the industry and I think that she's very much a pioneer in her space and, you know, it was a lot of fun to work with her just because she's an awesome personality and she has a lot of fire in her belly that I think the podcast community needs, but she's also a great business woman, so I think she brought a lot of those elements to the show that I needed, but really, it came down to, I don't know, I felt like there was just so much kind of cruffed and crap going on in the business that I didn't understand. I was speaking even to Dered and Jan – Dered and Jan..Derad and Jan, isn't that great? Just stalking to Jared and Dan.

Harry:
So that's Jared Easley and Dan Franks founders of Podcast Movements.

Corey:
Podcast Movement, yeah, and we were there last year and there was just so much misinformation and made up stuff and marketers all intermingled with great information, high value content, and amazing pioneers in the space and for the people coming into podcasting, I felt like how in the world can these guys possibly sift through this and I thought there's got to be a way to present this material to folks in almost in a contrarian fashion. It's like, can't we A/B test the information? Can't we stay it against each other and literally put people's tips and thoughts and advice in a way that lays it out that says, hey, we all have to acknowledge that everyone has a different approach because everyone has a different end game.

So, that was kind of it. It's like, maybe there's a way we can create a story here that tells the story of podcasting obviously from our slant. The way that we choose to tell it. There's no question about that that it's very edited to tell our story, but in a way that I think conveys the information such that the people who are on the show are the ones who are actually propelling the information forward and the listener has the chance to, you know, kind of formulate their own opinions, their own answers and hopefully come out of it with what any good program will do and that's leave you with even more questions and more desire to learn. So, that was kind of the approach.

Harry:
So, for the listener in just the 30 second version describe what The Podcast Producers is.

Corey:
It's a ten-part series where we cover ten podcast topics that we were considering relevant to the industry. We interviewed I think about 30 different people and on each of those topics and then we intermingled the conversations, the narrations, and their opinions on these topics in a way that kind of created a story arc and we released more like we would an album or a book saying that here's the ten chapters of this first addition of the book, read it at your leisure, but you can have it all at once.

Harry:
So, obviously when it first came out, there was a lot of buzz about it and a lot of people giving you some positive feedback, has this continued to reverberate for you?

Corey:
Yeah, big time. It's like, we're really playing the long tail here. This just has an evergreen affect. So, we're still today getting a lot of people emailing, listening, the downloads have been super, super steady, which means there is an evergreen content there that I think has value long term and what's happening, for example, now Jessica and I are going to different conferences and meet ups and talking to different people and people are coming up and going, oh my God, I love The Podcast Producers. You wasted two days of my life because I couldn't stop listening to it.

One of the best ones we got recently was Natalie Eckdahl who does BizChix. We talked to her recently and the feedback we got with her was so positive, because she said, for those people who can't go to a conference, this is a great substitute. This is a great way to consume that amount of information that you might get by having conversations with some of these podcasters.

So, that type of feedback has been super positive, but man, I got the best one the other day. I'm working with a new client in Vancouver and we started talking a little bit and he said, you know what's funny? You sound like the guy from The Podcast Producers. I'm like, really? Awesome, cool.

Harry:
That's funny. So, let's geek out a bit. So, what was the biggest challenge for you when you thought about what it would take to pull this endeavor together.

Corey:
You know, it wasn't really a technical challenge for me to edit it, because that's kind of my wheelhouse and I had down a pilot for NPR about two years prior. I did a really great music program. It was called Contrabandas and the idea is that we did bands independent from Central America and we really assembled it in that kind of narrative fashion, because NRP wanted me to do it that way and having done it, I thought, man, this is a great way to tell that story in terms of podcasting.

So, the technical aspect was pretty easy. The hard part I think was saying we're going to put a hard launch date on this thing and we're going to make this happen by this amount of time, no matter what. Like, I certainty could do a lot better job of the editing. There's a lot more that I would have loved to have done, but there was just no way it was going to get released by that date.

So, I think that was the biggest challenge was, you know, Jessica is obviously a pro at getting guests booked. It's very easy to jump on somebody with Skype for 30 minutes and record it. You know, making a website on Squarespace and starting a Libsyn account and stuff. This is, for us, second nature, because this is what we do all day.

So, really the technical challenge was saying I got to carve out x amount of hours every night after my job to sit in a dark room with headphones and make this into something that actually makes sense to people and that was the hardest part, because you end up with a ton of unedited material that you now have to form into something that actually tells a proper story.

Harry:
That's a skill, right? That's just a unique skill set on the editor and a lot of times that roll goes unsung, right, because the work involved to let's say take ten hours and if you have to take ten and whittle it down to one, you see this a lot in films sometimes. I think I recently read a stat or my wife might have told me a stat that the top films that were nominated or won an Oscar also had, also won that same yeah for best editor. So, there's something to be said for that.

Corey:
Yeah and the same thing too with music and film school. A lot of people don't stop and go, wait a minute, the music that Antony Weis provided us for this particular series had a lot to do with the overall sonic quality, the mood that was created. You know, we started a lot, before started narrations, with music to kind of get the feel of where are we going with this. That's why it became this, ‘I'm talking really closely into the microphone'. I'm doing the bedroom voice during this show. It wouldn't have been that way if the music had been like this pop rock stuff we had to kind of kludge into it.

So, there's so many different facets of it that I think don't get considered, including absolutely is the editing, because look, I could have taken every episode and reorganized and taken other clips and told a completely different story. So, there's a lot that kind of goes into it, but at the same time, there's a lot of decisions that have to very quickly be made, because, hey, this thing is going out on April 6th. I don't have time to dick around for six weeks and tell five different stories. I gotta get a story out the door.

Harry:
So, what are the plans for season two.

Corey:
It's happening, no question. We called it season one almost as a joke, right, because we're like, man, I don't know, nobody is going to care and is there really a season two to be done, but the feedback that we got after people had finished episode ten was that, holy shit, what now? What am I suppose to do? Where's season two, when is it coming out? And we said, we knew, like, we'll let the demand dictate whether or not we do it, because we made no promise. The reality is though, I've got a full time business and I've got a lot of stuff going and Jessica is producing a human in her body right now. She has to expel that and then probably raise it to some degree.

So, when she gets through that process, we can probably sit down and go ahead and do it again, but the good thing is, Harry, we know exactly what it takes to do it. We know what we'll do differently and better for season two and we know that we can produce this thing in eight weeks. So, it'll just be saying, when can we crave out the eight weeks and crunch and get this thing done. So, we're planning to at least start pre-production at the end of this year and probably going to be releasing something, maybe January/February of 2016. In the meantime though, we got a cool plan.

Harry:
I'm sure you have folks that are knocking on your door now to appear on season two.

Corey:
Yeah and you know, it's funny, a lot of them were the ones that didn't want to be on season one.

Harry:
So, you were saying you had folks, clambering to get on the second season two who had wanted no part of season one.

Corey:
I wouldn't use the word clambering, but I think there was a little bit of regret. There were some folks that we talked to at NMX that were just, they give us a pretty quick cold, but professional response saying no thank you and then they came up to us and they said, oh man, I just listened to that thing on the plane on the way here and shit. You know, we should have done something together, but more, I mean, you know, you can imagine, where we're getting is kind of the inundation of emails from the marketing guys who were going, ‘I just listened to your podcast and you should have me on season two and here's seven thousand reasons why' and I'm like, yeah, you understand if I bring you on the show, it's to show that you're a douche, right? Like, I'm going to put you on there to basically give you the platform to sound horrible, that's what's going to happen here.

Harry:
you could have a whole series just for that, right, you invite all the worst podcast online marketers in one season.

Corey:
It's tough because..

Harry:
It's almost like that would be, sorry to cut you off, that would be like the Donald Trump, The Apprentice podcasting version.

Corey:
Yeah, right, it's all of the people who are auditioning for American Idol. Maybe like the outtakes of all these terrible guests, but it's hard, man, because look, there were a couple of guests that we had on the show that Jessica and I had to confer on editing, because I said, you know, this is a really long winded self-bloviating sales pitch and this guy is kind of full of shit and I have to cut some of this out, right, or should I put it in because the question becomes do I want to alienate myself in the industry as the guy that said, at least, put this out there and said, this is what this person is saying and narrate it as honestly as I can or do I just want to cut it out and avoid the possible confrontation or issue in the first place. So, I don't profess to be a journalist anyway, so well, I'm just going to make it pretty and sound good and then, you know, the dicks will be the dicks and the awesome people will be the awesome people.

Harry:
It's interesting because I had that issue before where I've sort of tweaked an interview, because I think at the end of the day, I felt some responsibility to make sure that I always make my guests sound good and when they say something that's controversial or that I feel will be interpreted wrong and could turn off the listener from the entire rest of the interview, then I'm saying, you know what, it's not worth it and they don't need that drama, I don't need that drama, and just let's make them sound good and not presented a false picture, but still kind of shying away from things like that.

Corey:
I think what helped though is that a lot of guests didn't realize that we were half way through the interview until we were half way through the interview. It wasn't a lot of preamble. It was call them, I said, I'm going to start recording and then we would just talk about a lot of things and I had the bullets in front of me and we'd have these conversations and Jess did the same thing.

So that it made it as natural as possible, because I didn't want people to come on and really being used as a soapbox to talk about everything they know and everything they do. The spirit of it was to find a way, I don't know what's going on outside. Sounds like my studio is being disassembled around me, but the idea, Harry, was, man, we just wanted to get the personalities to shine through and that was kind of the key is like, the – when we go on each other's podcasts, this is what we tend to do. We just have the boiler plate answers. We talk about the same stuff.

That's why I love your show is because it's kind of the Charlie Rose of podcasting. It's, you know, I feel like I'm between two ferns or something with you and I wanted that kind of element to bleed into The Podcast Producers. I wanted people to feel like they could relate to podcasts.

Harry:
I think the sooner you can let them know that you're recording, sort of like, all bets are off by that point, like, you say it right away, and then you start talking and you almost don't give them an opportunity to get into their sales pitchy mode.

Corey:
Yeah, it's funny, because as a listener too we notice when they're just speaking naturally and they're having a good conversation, it's very engaging, it's interesting and you're learning the most, when they go into their spiel, it's obvious and you start tuning out and there was at least two guests I can think of off the top of my head during The Podcast Producers that were a 40 minute spiel and it's like, you know what, I can just go to your website and download the audio from your video tutorials and just put that in there, because that's basically what you're telling me here. It's just of no value to me whatsoever, but again, I am biased.

Harry:
It's your show man, you can do whatever.

Corey:
It is my show!

Harry:
Exactly. I've said that many times. It's my show, I can do whatever the fuck I want.

Corey:
That's right, yeah.

Harry:
I might have zero listeners in six months time. It's just more fun when you can do something that you feel proud of and that you don't feel like where your, I don't know, propping people up and providing a platform – you know, being a, what is the network that sells the jewelry? HQC?

Corey:
Oh, yeah, yeah. I see – I know what you mean, but you know what, hey, there's value in that too. I get the people who do that. I do shows for people that do that and I understand it and their listeners love it and that's all fantastic for them. It's just not what I am all about, that's all.

Harry:
QVC.

Corey:
Yeah, QVC, that's right.

Harry:
When you became aware of podcasting, was it slow and gradual or there's just a couple of moments when you're like, wait, what's going on over here, because obviously you have a different ear for this sort of thing. It's not like you were not in broadcast and someone mentioned podcasting and you were like, ‘what?' This is something related to what – to the industry that you were in already.

Corey:
Yeah, no, it was immediate because I'm a geek. I really like my tech and I used to listen to Leo Laporte a lot on the radio by streaming or he was on, for example, TechTV and when they started doing TWiT and it was kind of all the TechTV guys sitting around on microphones doing podcasting. I'm like, what? So I got really excited about it and then obviously when iTunes integrated podcasting into it and I could subscribe very easily, I was like totally hooked and the first thing I thought was like, well, where's my podcast? What the heck?

So, I set up some mics in a basement and I said, why don't we play independent music and talk about it and just kind of hang out and just put it on the internet and when we were doing that, that was maybe about 2007, early 2008, and there were only maybe a couple hundred podcasts in the iTune store, so we just blew up like crazy fast.

We were using this really weird service in Colorado for the RSS feed and stuff. I still got the guy's email. He's still in business. He's an awesome dude, but he wrote back and he's like dude, you have 10,000 listeners per show and we're just sitting around drinking and playing indy music and shooting the shit, but we had crazy loyal listeners very, very quickly and I thought, you know, this is kind of a thing, but we knew as well there's a ceiling to it, because at that time the estimate was there might only be a total of 40,000-60,000 podcast listeners on earth, right, and they're all, they're just geeks anyway show just know what podcasting is, but it was super early on and I didn't stop, you know, there were little hiatus that we would take in the show, but I've been podcasting since then because I just got super hooked.

Harry:
And then so now that you have a podcast production company, Podfly.

Corey:
Yep.

Harry:
Full disclosure, of which I am a happy customer.

Corey:
Yay.

Harry:
So, when did you realize there was a business model associated with it.

Corey:
About three years ago I was a program director for a company called The Overseas Radio Network and we were doing live radio, call-in radio, and we had 25 different shows that were broadcasting 24/7 and I helped that station transition into podcasting, because at that time, all they had was live call-in radio shows and then you could download the archives and I'm like, you guys, you need to make these podcasts, right, you get that.

So, we transitioned the company into podcasting and eventually it became, you know, the writing was on the walls, the live listenership was low, the podcast downloads are high. Why don't we just take a look at flipping this model and making a podcast network, which is what we did and as we were doing this, the hosts were paying the network to have the spot, right, they would pay for the production, we would set them up with the equipment.

We would help them with all the coaching they needed to get them on that radio network and then eventually we were starting to get more and more requests from people who had show ideas that were not appropriate to the format and at that time the co-founder of that radio network and myself, we said, well, why are we saying no to these people? Why don't we just help them get their podcast off the ground? That was maybe about two years ago.

So, very organically the company just started. We went ahead and just got a domain. Podfly.com was too expensive, so we're like, screw it, let's make a .net and we just started a business, you know, we went and got it registered and we got the trademark and we just went one by one, you know, new client, new client, until eventually it became like, this is a very viable business model and the next thing you know, I don't know a year and a half later, we're a staff of ten people, five of us are full time. Like, this is our job, and it's phenomenal, and we're getting a contact, you know, usually a day.

Everyday, a new lead, and now more and more we're seeing that holy crap, all the guys who have super established podcasts are hiring us to do their production because our work flow is super easy and super good and the price is right, so that's kind of where it all started is very organically people kicking down our door saying, can you help us do this thing? It's like, can you give us money? And they're like, yes. And then we're like, yes. And then just multiply that out and it becomes a business.

Harry:
That's interesting. What I think is also fascinating is that, it puts you in an interesting position where you get to hear a lot of podcasts and it's sort of the same position that someone like Libsyn is in as a host of, I forget of whatever percentage it was of current podcasts right now, it's a big number. So, what have you seen or for folks that are just starting podcasting or struggling to grow their show. I'm sure you see some things that we could probably call best practices, things to do/not do, or maybe even trends. So, I know that's multi-part, but just from where you're sitting and the unique position you have because of the service that you have.

Corey:
Yeah, well, I think a lot of people come to us because we can provide some folks with some of those tips and best practices as we call them, you know, and again, everything is so wild, wild west at the best practices. It's a loose term, but I can definitely convey to my other clients what is working well for the successful ones, you know, and share that information and I think there's a lot of value in there, but you know, at the end of the day, it still comes down to two basic and fundamental things, just because you have a podcast, doesn't mean people will listen to it and it's no different as if you just right a book, people aren't going to go to the store and buy it.

They have to be aware of it and the second part is you might be able to do a good marketing push at first to get that into people's ears, but if you suck, like if you're not a compelling host and you're inconsistent and it's not fun to listen to, people will leave, that's all there is to it, so you know, you got your circle of friends, right, you got your 150 people that might download your show, because they know what a podcast is, but even your friends ain't going to stick around if you're not good at this thing, so the one thing that can't be faked is talent. You just can't fake that and that's really hard.

It's got nothing to do with your voice. You can have a squeaky voice, you know, it's got nothing to do with A-lists guests. It's got nothing to do with SEO. It's got everything to do with high quality, because look man, here's the deal, like I just started dating this girl who is really into podcasts and every other day she sends me a text or a WhatsApp message with this awesome podcast that she's listening to that she thinks I would like and that's how those shows get popular and that's what I do with her.

It's like, dude, you should check out this show, this is really awesome and if those shows are awesome, they will grow their audience. Plain and simple. It's no different than a good indy record. If you find a really good band, you love to tell people, it's like dude, you gotta hear this band. This is really good. I don't care who their marketing department is, this is the best way to grow your show.

Harry:
Yeah, I mean, talk about loyal fans being the ones who become your primary ambassadors. I mean, there's nothing you can do to replicate that.

Corey:
No, I mean, like The Podcast Producers is a prime example. I mean, Jessica has a marketing background. I mean, the thing is there's only so much we can do. We can go on our Facebooks and our Twitters and Google+ and put all the right hashtags and all the Pinterest stuff and everything and yeah, there's value there, because you might pick up one or two people, but ultimately it's when someone is your agent and someone represents you positively, that's when you have the creditability, because everyone can go on their own Facebook page and say, listen to me. It's different when someone goes on a Facebook page and says, listen to hip or listen to her. That's the difference.

Harry:
Yeah, that is a huge difference and it's so neat when it happens sort of without you doing anything besides obviously producing the good content that's generating that love from your fans, but it sort of happens behind your back and when these things pop up every now and again, like I recently had a new listener come on and said love the show and he just started, I started seeing tweets. Oh, episode, you know 7, episode 9, and I quickly realized he was starting, he was going through the whole catalog and basically binge listening my past catalog of episodes and I was like, wow, that's awesome and it's really humbling when stuff like that happens.

Corey:
Oh, for sure. I mean, that's kind of the idea though too is that when we're creating this content, we're hoping that it does relate to people and people respond to it in a positive way and that's really what it always boils to is that the marketers will tell you different, but I only heard about, for example, RadioLab from somebody who said, oh, you like podcasting and you don't listen to RadioLab? What's wrong with you. I'm like, alright, I don't know, what's that? So, I checked it out and I loved it. The first thing I did was I thought of oh man, here's five of my friends that would totally freaking love this show and I just messaged them and I was like, holy shit, have you heard this RadioLab thing, dude? That's what it is.

Harry:
They're like, dude, c'mon, that's so two years ago.

Corey:
They're like, have you been in jail? What's wrong with you, man.

Harry:
Have you heard Song Exploder?

Corey:
No.

Harry:
It's total nerd out and since you're a musician too, they basically take a song and they break out, you know, as the name hints, the pieces of a song, and they get the producer on and they explain like okay, when I was creating the drums, this is what we're happening. The layering the base and they just kind of put the pieces together and they show you, like, they take popular songs and they show you.

Corey:
Damn, okay.

Harry:
And they just recently been brought into the PRX family so, Roman Mars is's podcast family. I think they just recently roped those guys in. So, they'll probably be getting more publicity, but yeah, check it out. Song Exploder.

Corey:
Here's the tough thing though is time is finite and I spend a lot of time professionally everyday as my full time job working in podcasting and sometimes the last thing I want to do is listen to a fucking podcast, you know? I just want to go for a walk. I want to read a book. I want to have sex and I want to have a good meal and I've got all these people going, have you listened to this? Have you listened to this? Have you listened to this? And it's like, I don't have an extra ten hours a day, right, to listen to these shows. I just don't.

Harry:
The bar is being raised and it's definitely forcing us to get rid of the things that we thought we'd be interesting in, but there's something better and something more well-produced and something more interesting that's going to grab our attention.

Corey:
Well, here's the thing and I'd like to speak on that if I got a second is that I've always been an advocate for understanding time and attention of a listener when you're deciding which podcast you're going to release or put out there or who you're going to compete against and I always draw the analogy, you know, I had a great girlfriend who was really into yoga and she listened to one or two yoga podcasts, because that's all the time and attention she'd be able to devote to it. The only reason she would ever seek out more yoga podcasts is because the one that she's already listening to starts to suck and then she's like, well, this, I don't like this anymore.

I'll go see if I can find a better one and that's kind of the thing is that you're not really competing against other podcasts, you're competing for the time and the attention of the individual listener who has, in most cases, four or five shows, half of which they only have time to listen to, you know? You gotta get into their ears some way and show them that your show is better for them and that's nearly impossible. It's nearly impossible to do, so that's kind of the thing, you gotta have that agency out in the field of people who are speaking well about what you're doing otherwise you're just never going to get the time and attention of a listener.

Harry:
Yeah, I agree. So, we'll wrap this up. I think this has been a fascinating discussion as I knew it would be. What has got you excited about podcasting in the coming year?

Corey:
I'm looking forward to going to PM this year. Podcast Movement is going to be a trip, because it's so much bigger than it was and I like what, what do they call them, Jan and Dared? I like what…Jan and Dared.

Harry:
What is it when you have the power couple and they share the first initial..

Corey:
Oh, like Bennifer? Should we call them like Dared?

Harry:
Dared or…

Corey:
I like Janred.

Harry:
Janred. Okay.

Corey:
I hope they don't listen to this show man. I'm going to lose my speaking slot.

Harry:
They'll flag you at the entrance.

Corey:
I'm looking forward to that and I don't know man. I'm just really enjoying working with some pretty high-profile clients right now and I just love no matter high up the ladder you get, everyone is still the same, you know. We are all kind of pink inside and we're all funny and we're all interesting and we all have the kind of same hopes and fears and dreams with our shows. So, I'm just, I'm looking forward to the community continuing to be an open and honest dialog and I think there's high value in there and one of the things that I was thinking about the other day is how important it is that the tree has been well shaken now and I think a lot of the rotten fruit has definitely fallen out.

So, we're going to see for example at this Podcast Movement, the people who are there are really truly good at what they do and the people who are speaking are definitely people that you want to listen to. It's not to say that the last one wasn't, but you know, there's some shifty characters in every industry and the good thing about the podcast industry is it vets itself very, very well and very quickly. So, you know, the posers, they're not going to last and I love how those guys are disappearing fast.

Harry:
Yeah, I definitely agree. So, last question, what would you say is the one most misunderstood thing about you?

Corey:
Oh, me? I don't think a lot of people know how funny I actually am. You know? I think a lot of people tell me I'm super intense and I take things too seriously and I can be intimating at times, but I don't think people realize I'm usually being sarcastic. I have a big sense of humor and I don't take myself very seriously at all.

Harry:
Yeah. I can vouch for that as well.

Corey:
Okay. That I'm funny or that I'm intimating?

Harry:
No, that you're funny.

Corey:
Alright.

Harry:
I think you have to have thick skin and I have a couple of friends like that. There's a certain type of person that you jive with when you realize they're not getting offended by every single thing that you're saying and you're like, oh, okay, we can hang.

Corey:
Yeah, yeah, totally.

Harry:
So, where can folks track you down and if they want more information on your comings and goings.

Corey:
You know, I'm super Google-able. If you just Google Corey Coates, you'll find me. There's all my Facebook and LinkedIn and Twitter and I think I have a 160 followers now, so I'm pretty excited about that. You know, Podfly.net is a good place to always go to and you can find out what we're up to.

Harry:
Okay, that's awesome. Thanks again, Corey, for coming on. I had a blast talking to you and I'm looking forward to catching up in person in about a month now, Podcast Movement.

Corey:
Yeah, man.

Harry:
Alright, take care. So, thanks to Corey for coming on the show. It's always fun when you get to talk to your friends in a relaxed environment and just sit back and shoot the shit. He's a good sport and I'm looking forward to catching up with him at Podcast Movement. If you are a podcast, you should be there. It's in Dallas, Fort Worth and it's PodcastMovement.com. I think they just opened up another batch of hotel rooms as well. So, get on over there and check that out.

So, all the show notes will be at PodcastJunkies.com/44 and as always, rating and reviewing the show is an awesome thing for you to do. It supports the show. It supports me and it tells iTunes that we're doing something pretty cool here and they dig that and they give us some love and they let our show be found a bit more easier.

So, if you wanna contribute to the cause, it's an easy, free way, to do it. Go to PodcastJunkies.com/iTunes. You can leave one on Stitcher too, if you're on Stitcher and always opened to feedback. I know I ask for it every show, I'm always looking for it. We have a Facebook page you can check out. Just go PodcastJunkies.com/Facebook and the last thing is if you want to sign up or our mailing list, the easiest way to do that is just send a text message to 23344 with the word PodcastJunkies all one word. I think that's enough for today. Thanks again for listening and I'm happy to be bringing this to you week after week. Stay tuned for next week's episode coming out next Monday. Take care guys and have a fantastic week.

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