Vernon Ross Interview Transcription
John Dennis Interview Transcription

Harry Duran:
So, this week I do something different and head across the pond for a chat with Colin Gray. He's the host of PodCraft. It's a podcast about podcasting, but something that Colin does a bit different is that he makes his episode more a season. So, I've seen some people do this in the past and they do it to create success and I think Colin does it as well.

He's in his fourth season and what he does is focus on one topic of each season and it usually runs about ten episodes and he covers, for example, in the beginning I think it was how to podcast and then what he does was focus on the equipment and then a bit of a deep dive on the interview and in getting started with your podcast.

He had an interesting concept about keeping a goal for your first ten episodes, because it's one of the mistakes that people when they get started, they don't have a plan for what they want to do and they sort of random in their approach for their first ten episodes and he's really interested in having people stay at it and as a lot of tips and has learned a lot from his long time podcasting; he started around 2007-2008 and for regular listeners of the show, you know I am a fan of the “veterans” and I think I'd put him in that category because he does have a lot of knowledge.

So, he had a great conversation. It was early morning for me, because I was in California and he was in London. Actually, he's in Edinburgh, sorry. And we were introduced by a mutual friend Liston Witherill, who I went to for some copy writing help. So, it's always funny how these connections are made, because I couldn't have ever imagined that I would be connected from a podcast from London and we'd end up having a fun conversation about our favorite topic. So, I'll think you'll like a lot of what Colin Gray is talking about when it comes to podcasting and the concepts that he teaches and he just comes at it with a fresh attitude and enthusiasm for podcasting, which I think will come through in the interview. So, I hope you enjoy it.

So, Colin Gray, thank you for joining us on Podcast Junkies.

Colin Gray:
Lovely to be here. Hi.

Harry:
So, we were referred by Liston Witherill.

Colin:
Indeed, yeah.

Harry:
I was doing a bit of research on how the intro happened and sometimes as is the case with guests that are sent your way, you have to keep track and thankfully Gmail has a fantastic search feature.

Colin:
Yes, indeed. Forget where in earth it came from.

Harry:
Now, where are you from?

Colin:
I'm from Scotland, so Dumfries in Scotland, so that's Southwest of Scotland out in the bottom corner. These days I'm in Dundee.

Harry:
In Dundee. That's where you're born and raised?

Colin:
No, well, I was moved – my dad's a Green keeper, so he tends golf courses. That job seems to come with it quite a lot of moving around, so that was, yeah, it was a fair a bit of moving. I have lived in Prestwick, off the coast of Scotland. Lived in Ireland for a while, France for a little while. So, born and raised in a few different places.

Harry:
Do you have fond memories of any of those particular locations?

Colin:
Yeah, all of them, I think. Prestwick is sort of the most long term one when I was a kid. So, that's where I made most of my school friends, but living in Ireland was pretty good as well. I enjoyed that and that was where we got to live in a golf course for four years and get to know some goats very well. There was some neighboring goats that always wandered into our garden. So, that was always interesting.

Harry:
I'm trying to think of the guests that we had up to about 40 episodes in, so I did get – I don't know if you've heard of James Schramko.

Colin:
Yes, of course.

Harry:
Yeah, he's fairly well known in the online marketing circles and he's in Australia as you know, so trying to find time with him was a bit challenging, because I think on my end it ended up being a 1:30 in the morning call as the only slot and when he's like the premier, when he's the guest and he's someone that you've been trying to get for awhile, you tend to accommodate with whatever time is more convenient for him.

Colin:
Yeah, absolutely. We're only seven hours apart, I think, aren't we? So, it's obtainable.

Harry:
Yeah. It's not so bad, although for the listener's benefit we tried to have this call now about three or four times.

Colin:
Yeah. It does cause some trouble, but it's always the same isn't it? When we're internationally podcasting.

Harry:
Yeah. So, you've been podcasting since about 2007-2008? Is that right?

Colin:
Yeah, that's right. Yep.

Harry:
So, talk a little bit about your story. I know you started out doing some web design and then you got into podcasting, but for the benefit of the listener, talk a little bit about your tech background.

Colin:
Yeah, sure. I started, yeah, back in about 2004 was my first proper getting into work and that was web design at the time. I just finished up my masters with university of Edinburgh and I just started working away as a web designer then. I soon discovered, of course, that constraint of freelance work is pretty trick, because you've got no contacts and not a lot of credentials behind you.

So, I ended up working about half and half. Half freelance doing web design stuff where I could find it and half teaching college. So, I was teaching web design and media and development and that type of stuff to develop Flash, animation, that kind of thing, but that kind of lead me through a few different things until a bit deeper into education. I ended up at university, but after awhile where that eventually took me to podcasting, because the university decided that they wanted to get into podcasting themselves and use podcasting an educational tool, so they tasked me with finding out how to podcast, find out how to use it to teach students, and then to teach all the lecturers, so it was part of my job at that university to teach everyone how to podcast and run courses on it essentially. I did that about for four or five years with that university.

Harry:
So, that's interesting. What year was this when you asked you to get into podcasting?

Colin:
Yeah, that was 2007. So, I first discovered podcasting around two years before that. I think 2005. I had to look this up recently, so I actually know. It was September 2005 I found my first ever podcast. So, I listened to them for probably about a year and a half before the university decided they were going to use them.

Harry:
What was the podcast, do you remember?

Colin:
First ever? Yeah, it was Boagworld by Paul Boag and Marcus Lillington.

Harry:
Okay, for the benefit of us Americans, you're going to have to explain that topic.

Colin:
It's a website design podcast. It's called Boagworld, because it's Paul Boag is his second name, but it was a really good podcast actually. It was one of those examples of a podcast that is succesfully more because of the banter between the guests – sorry, the hosts, than anything than topic. I mean, they knew what they were talking about, the topics were great, but it was Paul and Marcus. They were good pals and they just had a lot of chat and it was just good fun to listen to.

Harry:
So, at the end of the day it almost becomes a bit like Howard Stern here in the states where you end up coming for the personality.

Colin:
Yes, exactly. Yeah, you go up to the guys and take part in their banter, so it was good fun.

Harry:
I think now we take for granted how relatively easy it is for folks that are interested in podcasting and familiar with technology and web design and social media to get up and running, but I imagine at that time, it must have been somewhat of a challenge for you to figure out what was the first thing to do and where to do and even simple things like a microphone that we take for granted. All that was brand new for you.

Colin:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, 2007. I can't remember how I learned. I think it was just looking around on the web, finding random articles, but you're right, it wasn't half as much around then. I had the advantage that it was funded by the university, so I managed to get some decent kit right off the bat. Although we did go quite over the top, we ended up getting, what it was called again, oh yeah, the Marantz. So, you know the old Marantz massive big recorders, never remember the code to them, but they are the ones you use by like the BBC and stuff like that.

So, these huge big things that are literally the size of a shoebox that's a professional audio recorders would hang from a strap of their back to have like the big, you know, shotgun mics on a boom arm, the big fully-cap windshields. The kind of thing used by them. So, we had one of those as additional recorder connected to about 200lb condenser mic. We bought a stand for it as well. So, it was, absolutely ridiculous the kit we started off with, but, you know, public money is funding it, you might as well get good stuff.

Harry:
Yeah, it sounds like no expense was spared, which means you hit the ground running in terms of sound quality.

Colin:
Oh, yeah. The sound quality was great, so that was a good thing at the start, but probably my production skills and my presentation skills doesn't quite live up to the sound quality.

Harry:
What were you editing in back that?

Colin:
Back then it was Audacity. That was the first thing.

Harry:
Oh, it was Audacity, okay.

Colin:
Yeah, totally. Well, you know what, I say that, I mean, if somebody tells me that Audacity until after 2007, then I'll have to – I couldn't think what we were using back then.

Harry:
Someone might hold you to that.

Colin:
Yeah, exactly, but I'm sure it's Audacity. That's certainty what I remember starting out with and I still use it to this day mixed with a little bit of Adobe Audition.

Harry:
I think you just had the benefit of getting started so early and there was not a lot of folks listening, I imagine, at the time and not the sort of feedback that you can get, because everyone and their money as a podcast.

Colin:
Yeah, exactly. I mean. The thing there was actually, we weren't really broadcasting anywhere than the university. So, that was my first few years of podcasting we actually just internal, really. It was my public thing. Well, I say that, but it was available publicly. Students would download it and anyone could download it, it was just that it wasn't of much interest to anyone outside of the university.

So, it was a bit o a funny situation, I suppose, until I got into more wide podcasting, but yeah, it was certainty we got a lot of feedback, developed a lot of skills around then. Working with a lot of different lecturers, helping a lot of them to develop their own presentation skills, editing skills, so that kind of, I mean, that pushed me far really quickly having to teach other people how to do it.

Harry:
Were you the only host at the time or were there various hosts for the show?

Colin:
We had, actually no, we had a few different people working on it actually. I would tend to do interviews so I would go around the university and take interviews with like tutors on what was working well for them with teaching, what kind of stuff they were doing with their students. We even, do you know what, it was in Napier University and they actually have a good media department, so they have a little radio studio. So, it was a few times I got into the radio studio and I actually did proper interviews in there. So, that was always interesting. Talked to a few ex-radio professionals. It was cool. Learned from them and presentation and structure and stuff like that.

Harry:
I imagine you were in an environment that had really good sound quality.

Colin:
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, well, what we used to do was actually properly, professional produced, you know, sound-proofed, full on mixing decks, and massive makes and stuff like that. So, that was as good as you get in the BBC type of thing. So, yeah, it was really good.

Harry:
I think for podcasters whenever we have the opportunity to end up or record in one of those environment, we feel like we're a kid in a candy store, because I recently had that experience with some friends who have a local production studio in Los Angeles and they have a proper podcasting interview setup and they've got the studio quality shore mics and I was listening to the quality of the interviews and the folks I was interviewing on the other side and everything just sounded so pristine and crystal clear. It was fun.

Colin:
Yeah, do you know, sometimes we that, you know, we've done stuff with our rooms, like hung up curtains or you know, turned off the computer, all that kind of stuff. You get the wardrobe and hide in the coats, that type of thing and you think you're getting good quality, but actually compare it to a proper studio, it's just ridiculous. Yeah, it's great.

Harry:
It's funny, for the benefit of us Yankees, I may have to have a glossier of translations so kit is technology and wardrobe is closet.

Colin:
Yes, indeed. Yes.

Harry:
But it is funny, because I do have a friend, a friend of mine that I met through the podcasting cycles. His name is Chris Cerrone and he started out, I think his first 30-40 episodes were in the closet or in the wardrobe, as you say, and I think it was the only place that he could find that he wasn't getting the feedback, the echo in the room, and the quality of the sound was the best that he could get in that environment.

Colin:
Yeah. I think people always think I'm joking when I say that, but it's actually a serious suggestion.

Harry:
Yeah, exactly.

Colin:
And I have people that I work with that do it. They actually get their little digital recorder, the microphone, get a chair into the closet and just record in there and it works brilliantly. It's so sound damped. The best you can do apart from a proper studio. Well, or spending money on wall paneling and stuff like that, but yeah, it's good. It's effective.

Harry:
I think the only challenging thing would be that you go in there and you end up in Narnia.

Colin:
Yes, indeed. You might disappear and suddenly a lion stills your microphone and yeah.

Harry:
At least you have something to podcast – you'd have something to podcast about then, right.

Colin:
Well, I guess that's true. If I would get a live lion roaring in my podcast, I'd do well.

Harry:
So, what happened to that then, because you did that for a period of time and then moved on to something bigger and better.

Colin:
Yes, indeed. So, next I suppose. Let me think about my chronology. I started, I actually started the Podcast Host, so ThePodcastHost.com is the company I run just now and I started that while I was at Napier, because we had been using a certain podcast host, which I won't name, because I'm about to tell you they were rubbish. We were using a certain hosting platform, which was so unreliable, it was ridiculous. They are still around today.

Harry:
I was just about to ask, they're still around.

Colin:
No, they're still around, they do very well. I'm not going to slag them off, but yeah. Anyway, they do – they just went down for like literally days at a time and you wouldn't be able to get the support service what so ever. The platform was based on WordPress, but it was literally a three or four year old version of WordPress, like really heavily customized. It was just awful, because of my web design background, I thought, do you know what, I can setup a WordPress molly site, I can run some hosting like this myself, so that was essentially the first incarnation of The Podcast Host.

It was really a platform setup by me to host our podcasts at Napier and a podcast I was then thinking about starting myself outside of the university. It kind of grew from there and I actually started offering more publicly and that's what grew into the business. I mean, we do a lot of different stuff today, don't actually concentrate on hosting such anymore, but that's kind of how it grew and then ended up setup some podcasts ourselves at that point, I guess.

Harry:
What's interesting is you actually started the site, The Podcast Host, with the intention of hosting podcasts.

Colin:
Yes, indeed. Yeah.

Harry:
So, is that still part of the business? Are you an actual hosting podcasting?

Colin:
Kind of, yeah. Nowadays, I moved out of hosting and such, because it such a low cost service. It's so commoditized that it was just really hard to make any money out of to be scalable. Do you now what, at the likes of Libsyn and Blubrry do it so well and they've got the scalability and they are – so, I just decided it was pointless trying to compete with that. Do you know what, I'm not really that interested in running a hosting service, because it's – I mean, all power to the people that do it, but I just don't, it doesn't set my heart racing, you know.

Harry:
Yeah, it's a type of service that from a customer service perspective, it must be just a pain to keep track of all your customers and keep them happy and every little thing that happens. They are always banging down your doors, help me with this, help me with that, my podcast is not up and it just becomes more trouble than it's worth.

Colin:
Absolutely. That's exactly what it was like. It was just, I mean, people are only paying $5-10 a month for it and then, so one email or one phone call basically wipes out two or three months worth of profit, I've got no time and it's just, it was ridiculous. So yeah, jump to that. These days I still do a bit of hosting, but it's only for clients, mentoring clients or production clients.

So, part of what I do is helping people to create podcasts, launch them, and then to actually produce them ongoing. So, people will send me the audio files and my business does the editing and producing and polishing for them. So, if people are doing that with us, then I host their podcast that way. So, the only people we host these days are ones I am working with on (#17:38?), whether it's mentoring or production.

Harry:
Yeah, so I'm hosting with Libsyn and I've been pretty happy with them. In case, you're listening and you feel like you need to sponsor an episode or two.

Colin:
Yeah, sure.

Harry:
It's always good to give them a call-out on the show.

Colin:
Yeah, absolutely.

Harry:
And then the other thing is I test other platforms. I syndicate out through SoundCloud and YouTube and Spreaker and Stitcher.

Colin:
Yeah, I'm with Blubrry mainly, so they're kind of my core media hosting and then, yeah, I put stuff on SoundCloud as well. I feel, yeah, just with anywhere we can find it, really. I haven't gone as far as trying to repurpose to YouTube to yet and putting video to it, but I'm interested to try that actually to see if it works.

Harry:
Auphonic is a great tool for syndicating content, because it takes in the, if you put in a nice artwork, I think it's 700 by 394, I actually have it memorized by now, but if you put that artwork into Auphonic and then you connect your YouTube account, it'll send out a static image. It won't obviously be a video, but it will be a static image that fills up the entire window and then your audio is just playable so people have at least your artwork to look at while they're listening to the episode.

Colin:
Okay, yeah. See, I've always considered that you would have to make some slides or something or at least people some changing images, but yeah, I suppose if you can just put an image, because a lot of my PodCraft shows actually, that's the podcast I do on podcasting through the podcast host. A lot of the shows that I do for that are really short. My kind of principles are keeping it as short as possible just so people can fit them in. So, actually just like a 12 to 15 minute episode with just artwork in the background might be alright. I can maybe get away with that.

Harry:
Yeah, I think it would work too. The other thing is that depending on how detailed you make the description, I would imagine since it's a Google owned entity that there's some SEO benefits to having the content on there as well.

Colin:
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, it seems alright. I mean, even if you find fairly well, it's not a place to get found, isn't it.

Harry:
Yes, it's true. I think what helps is when you have the mentality of being as visible as possible as you mentioned, because a lot of people say, well, I need to drive everyone back to my iTunes or to my Libsyn feed. Whatever your RSS feed is so that you're counting your downloads and I think people get so obsessed with counting the downloads from Apple that they lose sight of the fact that they should increase their reach as wide as possible and then just work to have a consist call to action in the show so that they can..so people – no matter where they're listening, there's always the opportunity that a listener will turn into a customer if that's your desired outcome in the long run.

Colin:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, if your aim is to get people back to your website, then put the show everywhere you can and just say on the show, oh, so my websites here, my websites here. Have your lead magnet or whatever in there to persuade people to actually take it on.

Harry:
And then, so you mentioned PodCraft. So, talk about the origins of that show.

Colin:
Great, yeah, so with the podcast, so we're starting a transition out of the hosting side of things. I was looking at what else to use the site for and one of the most popular aspects of the site was always the articles on how to podcast. I just started to log things for myself, really, because I'm bit of a geek really, so I really the equipment experiment with microphones and mixers and all that kind of thing because of the university attachment as well.

I've got to try quite a lot of different stuff just because of the funds they had for it. So, I was writing articles on the microphones and all that kind of stuff. So, that stuff just kind of naturally started getting some traffic in and some questions. I just suddenly start to think, well, what's the point writing about – I should be podcasting about it too.

So, the first series of PodCraft actually was a course I had developed for the lecturers at university. It was a ten episode series designed to take you from complete beginner, okay, to launching your first episode. So, it was all ten minute episodes. First one was what is a podcast, next one was what benefit is this to me, then you go on to stuff like, recording environment. So, how you setup your room, like what we were talking about earlier, then how to setup your microphone. how to script, that type of stuff. So, it was ten episodes all about ten minutes long, which took you right through actually launching your first episode and I took it really from there. I suppose that is my education teaching background. I really make PodCraft course-based show.

So, it's always based around seasons. Season two was around equipment. So, that was a full gate to podcast equipment. First episode is microphones and then you go into mixers, blah, blah, blah. So, yeah, that's kind of the approach I've taken and it seems to – people quite like it. I just – I quite like the fact that it's quite segmented, it's quite categorized, so when people find the show, they don't have to search back through all the episodes to find stuff about, say, setting up a podcasting website.

They just have to watch series three and they just follow through that whole series and they get all the information on it as oppose to, you know, sort of standard approach to podcasting, which is just to change topic every week and just talk about whatever you like. There's nothing wrong with that, obviously. I just quite like the kind of more focused season-based, category-based approach.

Harry:
Yeah, I like that aspect of it, because I've seen some folks tend to do that and actually you're in good company because Startup.

Colin:
Yeah, of course. I was before them. I was before them.

Harry:
You could always say yeah, the concept of the seasons and it's interesting because you had not only the background, but you had the content, because you come from an education background, so the concept of putting things in lessons and putting organized into more consumable bit sized pieces is something that just came to you naturally.

Colin:
Yeah, that's right. I was just, it was just the first way I thought to do that. I didn't think to do it any other way, just because I'm used to creating course, I'm used to creating education resources and a podcast to me, or my idea behind a podcast was teaching folks, that's just what popped into my head.

Harry:
Yeah, you saw the podcast as just another medium in which to broadcast your lessons.

Colin:
Yeah, exactly. Yep.

Harry:
So, you've finished up season four now?

Colin:
Yeah, I just finished season four, which was around planning and presenting. So, that was something I thought – was possibly one of the less covered aspects of podcast. I think a lot of people talk about equipment, a lot of people talk about monetization, they talk about getting started, but not many people actually think about how to present and presentation skills and how to plan an episode and stuff like that. So, it was something I wanted to cover and I got a few good guests on for that one.

Harry:
Sorry. For the benefit of the listener, if you could just go through each of the seasons and what the main topic was that you covered.

Colin:
Yeah, sure. So, season one was the beginner skates. That was launching your first episode. Season two was equipment, so that was literally going through everything from an episode on mics to an episode on mixers, an episode on, what else, this recorders and then all the little bits like cables and boom mikes and boom stands and all that kind of stuff. Season three was starting your podcasting website. So, that was a 20 episode guide to getting setup from complete scratch in WordPress to having a really well setup, well optimized, well tooled-out podcasting website that's really good at capturing audio and turning them into listeners.

You know, using call to action and subscribe buttons and all that kind of stuff. So, that was really start to finish of setting up a website by yourself. The fourth was the planning and presenting one. So, that was just interviewing a few different podcasters about – so how to create great content and how to get out there to people in the best possible way. There's stuff in there around things like story telling and in fact I had one from Liston, that you mentioned earlier, our mutual friend, on copy writing. So, he was talking bout how to plan out podcast episode names and plan out the show notes and things like that, so you can actually capture people more effectively.

Harry:
I have to make sure I get caught up on those.

Colin:
Great.

Harry:
So, what do you have in store or from a planning perspective what are you thinking about for season five?

Colin:
Well, I've got a couple of ideas. I think seasons five is going to be monetization. So, monetization is always the like topic on everybody's list. It's always something that comes up, isn't it? So, what I'd love to do is to get a series of episodes around each type of monetization type, obviously. So, I'm going to cover stuff like Patreon sponsorship and various other ways. Selling a product or service, that kind of stuff, but leading on from that, I want to get lots of case studies with people that have monetized.

So, I want to try to get people on that – are in really kind of in niche industry or really strange industries. You know, people that have made money out of a podcast that you maybe wouldn't necessarily have thought of, so for example. There's a lady that I'm contacted at the moment that runs a pet sitting agency, so she just runs a company that basically hires out pet sitters. So, people will go and feed your cat while you’re on holiday for a week. She's – because I want to talk to her when she's launched about how she's going to make money out of this. Like, how is she going to sell her services. So, that type of stuff. The type of thing that you wouldn't think you can make a podcast about. So yeah, that's the podcast..

Harry:
So, just to be clear, she has a podcast about pet sitting?

Colin:
Well, I think a little bit more about pets, really, because the target audience says people who have pets that will need them looked after at some point. So, if she can attach in listeners that are just interested in pet news, you know, looking after a dog and a cat or whatever, then that'll naturally lead them towards her pet sitting services.

Harry:
Now my interested is peaked, is the podcast live yet?

Colin:
No, it isn't. I've been talking to her about it and I'm interested. I'm following her through the launch process and see how it'll all work. So, I think that could be really interesting case study, but yeah, that's kind of my intention is to find people doing things like that, you say, you sounded a bit incredulous.

Harry:
It's funny.

Colin:
I want to find people who have that kind of podcast and talk about how they're monetizing it.

Harry:
Yeah, it's always interesting because I am a huge fan of trying to niche down as much as possible and I always give the same example, but when I was at Podcast Movement last year, which is the podcasters conference here in the states. There was someone who told me about a podcast. It was about coroners.

Colin:
Sorry, about what?

Harry:
Coroners.

Colin:
Oh, coroners, like, dead people.

Harry:
Dead people, exactly.

Colin:
I actually thought you said corners. Like as in the corner room or a square.

Harry:
That would be, that could be something too.

Colin:
It's a bit esoteric subject. I'm not sure..

Harry:
The Plaza Podcast. The coroners one, it's called Coroner's Corner, which is a mouth full.

Colin:
Very good. Listed like that, that's a good copy writing title.

Harry:
Yeah, that's true. So, I may have some people to send your way. I have actually an interview coming up with Jennifer Briney. She has a podcast called the Congressional Dish.

Colin:
Okay.

Harry:
And she's taken it upon herself to, imagine this, actually read the content of the bills that are presented by the house in the congress here in the states.

Colin:
Okay, right.

Harry:
And the things that she finds is lots of examples where our representatives, our fearless leaders, if you will, have taken upon themselves to sneak a lot of pork into a lot of these bills. So, she's sort of a crusader in that respect and I think what she's doing is a service that's so interesting and valuable for the folks that do listen that she's been able to have a bit of success with donations.

Colin:
Okay, great. So, yeah, that's exactly the type of thing I'm talking about. That's the subject that you wouldn't think you could even make a podcast about, never mind make money out of it, so yeah, excellent. Yes, pass her contact details, that would be good.

Harry:
Yeah. So, how's the timing on that look for season five?

Colin:
I have the first interview in the bag already, so I'm hoping to put that out in about two weeks time. So, I'll launch about then.

Harry:
Yeah, monetization is just a really slippery slope and it's the holy grail, right, for podcasters, because everyone that gets in there is like, okay, maybe number one is like, how do I start and what mic do I get and then, I think, probably number two is how am I going to make money on this.

Colin:
Yeah, yeah. I think the thing is most people don't make money out of the podcast itself, do they, most people make money out of the audience they get with the podcast and then leads to their services or a product or something similar, but there's even just a basics I think that need cover like, if you are going to go out and look for sponsorship, what kind of price will you start with? Like, what kind of CPM good or acceptable or how many numbers do you need before you can start thinking about sponsorship and that kind of stuff, so that's the kind of stuff I like to cover, it's the all basics and I move up to ore advance stuff after that. So, hopefully I'll give an idea, give people an idea how to get started in it.

Harry:
I think what would be interesting is the fact that you're using a wide variety of examples so that people don't assume that the most basic one and the most easiest one to chase in terms of the sponsor on your show or the advertiser, that's probably just one of a lot of different opportunities you have for trying to make money on the show.

Colin:
For sure and I think it's probably one of the hardest as well. I think sponsorship really is. It's for people who have reasonably large audiences and even then it's still quite tricky to find where as if you just build your products or you have a service or something like that, it's a lot more straight forward.

Harry:
I think it helps if you come into podcasting with a skill set and then you want to use the podcast as your platform for communicating the knowledge that you already have in another field.

Colin:
Yes, absolutely. I mean, there's a big difference isn't there, because there's a lot of people that, the kind of split is that you have people that podcast on hobbies. So, people that podcast about a TV or podcast about mountain biking and then you have people that get into podcasting to teach, because it's a subject that they teach anyway, so a photographer for example, Julie Christie who does an excellent podcast called the Tea Break Tog. She teaches podcasts – sorry, she teaches photography in real life and now she's teaching on a podcast, so actually that's going to monetize by sending people to her courses. So, yeah, you come in with a skill set like say as much more obvious when you're going to make your monetization.

Harry:
Yeah, make sure you send me the links for her show and any of the other ones that are online. Love to include them in the show notes.

Colin:
Yeah, happy to. More than happy to.

Harry:
So, that was a nice segue into your other podcast, because I know you have one on mountain biking and one on gaming as well, right.

Colin:
Yeah, that's right. I think the first one I started actually before PodCraft, just me and a few of my friends do a lot of gaming, so bit of a geek at heart, like I said. We do a bit of board gaming, card gaming, that type of stuff. So, we just got together and started to record a weekly podcast on gaming, which we called Dicing With Design, which I think Liston would like as well.

Harry:
Okay.

Colin:
Yeah, so we ran that for awhile. It's a lot less regular these days. We've all got kids and stuff now, so we don't get to game as much never mind actually meet up to chat, but the mountain biking one too I ran for awhile just because that was a hobby of mine too and that was probably the most successful podcast I've had in terms of numbers and stuff like that and engagement too. It was just a gap that people weren't really covering.

So, yeah, I enjoyed doing them. Again, I don't really keep up with either the mountain biking one or the gaming one as much as I should, but I am planning to start get the mountain bike when I get regular again soon.

Harry:
Yeah, it's interesting when you become a podcaster, everything becomes a topic that you can feel like you can podcast on.

Colin:
Yeah, definitely. You have to hold yourself back, don't you, because I struggle with the ones I've got live already and there aren't any new ones.

Harry:
Yeah, even if we had just the ones, there are so many different things you can do to improve the shows, the content, the guest, the website, the show notes, the marketing. It's just endless, right. It's almost like when you buy a house and you realize that this is going to be a project for you as long as you own it and there's always going to be stuff you can tinker with.

Colin:
Yeah, absolutely. There's always going to be new techniques to promote it and stuff like that, isn't there, that you can work on.

Harry:
And new technologies, right?

Colin:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, like we're using (#34:52?) and using that to record this episode. So, that's a new thing to try out, but yeah, you can't get caught by every shiny object in the world

Harry:
Well, what's happening it's a bit of a gold rush in the podcasting space and everyone and their mother is coming up with some variation of a tool that they think is going to be the next best thing for podcasters. So, I think we all come at it, especially the podcasting community comes at it with a sense of apprehension, because the last thing we want to do is tie our show to a service that's not going to be around in three months.

Colin:
Yeah, exactly. I think, yeah, do you think in sort of the sense that the success of Serial and Startup and stuff like that is a bit of a double edged sword in that sense. We got all these things that are now taking up our time and everything, but in the other hand, obviously, it's great that new money is coming into the industry and podcasting is getting more main stream and a bit more sponsorship money and that kind of stuff. Yeah, comes with warnings though, I guess.

Harry:
I think it's helpful for those of us that are in the podcasting space that also have a service that can help people on board that you mention that you're doing that yourself with your website and with your service and getting folks introduced into the world of podcasting and getting them setup and helping them flatten the learning curve, as my friend Dave Jackson from the School of Podcasting likes to say.

Colin:
Yes.

Harry:
So, I wanted to ask you about what American influence you've had in terms of podcasting and how much of them were apart in your learning about what shows are out there and how shows are being produced?

Colin:
Do you mean in terms of podcasting in particular?

Harry:
No, in terms of shows where they're. I know in the beginning you tend to listen to local folks or folks in your community or are podcasting about topics that relate more to what you have an interest in, but I was wondering what shows that you listen to at that time that were more American-based and what shows you listen to know as well.

Colin:
Yeah, sure. Well, I was thinking about my start out in podcasting recently and Boagworld was certainty the first one I ever listened to, but I'm reasonably sure that the second podcast I ever described to was Internet Business Mastery.

Harry:
Oh okay.

Colin:
By Jeremy and Jay, isn't it?

Harry:
Yes.

Colin:
Yes. In fact, they had their stage names originally, but they changed it to their proper names more recently, but yeah that was a really good podcast about basically starting up an internet business and they took a very – I probably learned a fair bit from them in terms of the approach they took. They keep things very simple and straight forward and has good calls to action in their shows and I really enjoyed that show in the early days and that's certainty American, isn't it. Moving on from there, in terms of podcasting shows, I mean, I've listened to all this standard how to podcast shows, like Cliff Ravenscraft is probably one of the first ones I listened to and moved to others. I really like Ratio, I really enjoy the podcast or studio with Ray Ortega.

Harry:
Yeah, Ray's been on my show as well as yours.

Colin:
Yeah, I noticed that in your listen, actually, yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think that's why, because he seems like a really nice guy and he seems to have a very simpler approach to podcasting and interest in podcast, to me, he's a bit of a geek too, he likes the equipment.

Harry:
Yeah, he does.

Colin:
But he still thinks that it's good to just keep things simple all the time too. Yeah, I like Ratio. These days I actually, most of the shows that I listen to are business related in general rather than podcasting, so I listen to a lot of shows like, I know everybody is talking about just now, but the Tim Ferriss show, for example.

Harry:
Yeah, fantastic show.

Colin:
Yeah, exactly. Just the guests that he can actually get through his fame, I guess, I mean, he's got an advantage there over the rest of us. The people that he can get on like Arnold Schwarzenegger, for example.

Harry:
Yeah, a little bit of an advantage there.

Colin:
Yeah, I don't believe he's going to be coming on PodCraft any time soon, but –

Harry:
Aim high, Colin, aim high.

Colin:
Wow, exactly, that's true. I shouldn't be so negative, but I don't know the lessons he teaches through how to be successful are really good. So, I like, these days I really like more inspirational shows like that and things I can really learn from on a kind of grander sense than the minutia of podcasting and equipment and stuff like that.

Like Startup, we've mentioned Startup a few times and the story of that, just getting a picture of how a company starts, how equity is negotiated, how partnerships are formed, how problems of growing, of expanding, that kind of stuff, that's the kind of thing I'm interested in just now because I suppose that's maybe more where may business is at now that I am kind of past the initial stages and more looking at growth and expansion and product development and things like that. So, I guess that's where I'm up to now.

Harry:
It's interesting, because are interests, like you said, tend to mature and now it's almost like we're listening to podcasts as a way of figuring out how people handle different guests or what they're interview skills are like or even just listen to the quality of the production of their podcast as a way as something to shoot for.

Colin:
Yeah, absolutely. You're really right there. That's a good point. The fact that we're both producers, it's good to listen to something like Startup to actually learn how their layering the music and the feeling and how they're building this story and stuff like that. That's really interesting.

Harry:
Sometimes they're so polished that you're just wondering, okay, I really got a ways to go here.

Colin:
Yeah. You know, I did an experiment, because I was contracted by a university to do some educational podcasts for them recently and they had a recently big budget, so I thought, do you know what, I'm going to pitch properly polished produced episodes just six of them and put a lot of time into it and actually produce something that I think is kind of a standard of Startup. I'm not claiming to have reached their standard by any means, but I discovered that I've produced something many 20 minutes long that is equivalent, maybe not as good in terms of the story telling and things like that, that's the bit I need to work, but in terms of sheer production, quality of production, I think I got to the same standard as a Startup is. It took me, for the last episode, it took me about eight hours for a 20 minute episode.

Harry:
That's just what I was about to say. The production time becomes exponentially longer when you try to do an episode of that caliber.

Colin:
Absolutely. Yeah, it's ridiculous. You know what, that's with one interview as well. So, that was me trying to tell the story with just myself and one interview, so chopping up an interview into little sections and stuff like that. So, I mean, that's what I mean by it certainty wasn't the story telling equivalent of Startup, as Serial with the way they pull in seven-eight different narratives in one episode, but yeah, even just editing that one episode until a startup type format. It's, you know, telling a story and cutting it in little bits and putting music on the top notch and stuff. That's still too (#42:03?).

Harry:
Yeah, I did something similar with Dave Jackson with the school of podcasting because he, I was inspired because he tends to do a lot of that himself. So, I said, well, for his episode, I'm going to go the extra mile and I pulled in like, I think, a Jerry Seinfeld quote. I found the video that he was talking about. I put that in there. There was some music he mentioned, I cut that in, I think three or four different times where, oh, I was making commentary, that's what it was.

So, I would say, oh, and then here's where Dave talked about this and normally don't do that, obviously, because I've never done an episode about, but I was just motivated to do that and it was fun to do and then I quickly realized if I want to have more than ten episodes on my show, then I better get moving and it's not something that I can – a model that I can adopt going forward unless I was making a lot of money.

Colin:
Yeah, absolutely. It's just not sustainable, is it, unless it's suddenly your full time job.

Harry:
Yeah, but it's fun to do, it's definitely to do.

Colin:
Well yeah, it's great for trying and that instance and I'm really glad I did it and I'm even more glad I got paid to do it.

Harry:
That's even better.

Colin:
I think that's the only way I could have done it actually, because I just couldn't, the timing that was involved. See, that eight hours I mentioned as well, that was just editing. So, that didn't include chasing up the interview and planning for the interview and recording it and stuff like that. So, it was probably close to two days in total. So, I mean, I just couldn't afford to take that time out for just a wee experiment that ends up in a 20 minute episode, but again. You talk about the engagement that something like Startup and Serial and that have generated. Maybe, maybe, if it's likely to generate that much engagement, that much hype, then maybe it's worth investing that much time into your production and your interviewing and stuff like that.

Harry:
Yeah, it's true, you just have to find a wealthy sponsor.

Colin:
Indeed, yeah.

Harry:
Universities are actually not a bad place to start.

Colin:
Definitely, yes. I would agree. Go chase some universities money.

Harry:
Yeah, universities or a bio-technology company or something.

Colin:
Yeah, exactly.

Harry:
People with money to burn.

Colin:
Yes.

Harry:
I think what's interesting is as bigger and bigger players get into, I think what happens is bigger companies that want to start podcasts see that as a marketing expense and they don't really see a podcast as a revenue source and it changes the mindset, because you're not trying to monetize or still affiliate codes on your website or promote SquareSpace.com.

Colin:
Yeah, sure.

Harry:
You really just focus on the content and a lot of the times, the only thing they really have to sell is the institution themselves.

Colin:
Yeah, definitely. It's something that's coming up with me a lot recently, actually is the tying end to your content marketing strategy, so it's the overall, the overall content marketing strategy for the whole company and yeah, you're absolutely right. As soon as they can get that tied in alongside blogging and the videos and even just getting out there and meeting people at networking events and stuff like that, it just becomes a lot more valuable or a lot more sustainable.

Harry:
Yeah, I agree. So, coming back into how you help folks get started with podcasting. What do you think are the biggest mistakes people are making when they are starting their podcast?

Colin:
I think there's two or three things that people do are the biggest mistakes right at the start. The first one is, everyone knew this, nothing knew to anyone, but perfectionism. So, there are so many people that come to me for help and they've been planning their podcast for the last six months.

They've recorded about ten first episodes and they've just never put them out there and the thing to me, the thing I always tell people is that you should assume for the first ten episodes and this could be a lesson then, so it'll take that long for you to get any kind of decent audience unless you already have an audience. So, it differs if it's somebody that blogs and have an audience on your site. You already have a mailing list of 5,000 people.

This is a bit different, but talking about somebody who is starting to build their business, starting to build their platform, that type of thing. You've probably got five to ten episodes where by you should just try things out. So, record an episode and stick it out there. I mean, if it's absolutely horrendous don't put it out there, but try to just put things out there and the only way you're going to actually build that confidence, that presentation, that skills and presenting and planning and all that kind of thing is by do it.

There's so many people who come to me having not done it, not released and therefore they don't get any feedback, so they don't discover what works. They don't get anything back from the few listeners they do get in the early stages, which teach them what they're doing well, what the strengths are, what the weakness are, and what they should build on. What content they should keep putting out, that kind of stuff.

So, I think that's certainty the first thing. Beyond on that, I think it's equipment. So, I think a lot of people dive in and buy themselves a few hundred pounds worth of equipment straight away. They buy themselves a complicated microphone and recorder setup or even buy themselves a mixer thinking that the audio quality makes the biggest difference to their content and, by all means, to an extent, it does, so I mean, if you've got terrible audio quality, you're not going to have people keep listening, but as long as you're at an acceptable standard, which doesn't take much, then people will listen, because the content might be good.

So, yeah, as long as your content is good, people will keep listening. The problem is that when you dive in with that much equipment, that much complexity, it just makes it really unsustainable. It just makes it really hard work to record and the big thing for me in the first ten episodes and another thing I always tell people is that you need to make sure it's easy as humanly possible, because this is a time where you're just learning it, when you're building your audience.

You're not getting much feedback, so there's not really many external factors that are driving you, motivating you to keep going, so if somethings is difficult, if you've got to setup your microphone and your mixer and make sure your settings are all right and, it's just complicated, then you're much less likely to do it, so for the first five to ten episodes, I quite often to tell people to just go and get a halfway decent headset microphone and just fire out some episodes as quickly and as easily as you can and then that's the way to make it sustainable, to build your initial audience. From there, you can upgrade, because by that point you'll be getting feedback on how to do it well and you'll be getting people telling you you're doing well and therefore you're more motivated to keep recording.

Harry:
I think one of the other suggestions, I heard you on the Marketing Academy Podcast and you talked about having a purpose for your ten episodes and I guess that sorts of leans towards the approach you took with having episodic content, but I think you mentioned the importance of having – a consistent thread throughout those first ten.

Colin:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you can do that, that's great. I suppose that's sort of the strategy, isn't it? That's another thine to work on with a lot of people, I'm sure you do the same with production clients is figuring out in the early stages what is it you're looking to get out of this podcast, because that's what a lot of people miss, isn't it. Like, when they're first planning a podcast, they're thinking about monetization, stuff like that, they don't think about the fact that we need to figure out in the first five to ten episodes what are we looking to get out of these first ten episodes, not the whole show.

I mean, by all means, plan that if you want, but just plan what you want to get out of the first ten episodes, whether it's get out to like 200 downloads per episodes by episode ten or whether it's get five emails from customers to acknowledge the fact that this is actually reaching people and it's mattering to them and as long as you have a name like that, then that gives you a purpose, that gives you something to base your – to evaluate your efforts and see whether it's giving you a bit of a return on the time you're putting in.

Yeah, if you can manage to have a theme where by you're trying to achieve something by the end of that five to ten episodes then that's even better because then you can kind of work towards and you can have a nice little ending point there where you're going to say, right, we're going to take a two week break. We're going to go into value of what's going on, we'll be back in two weeks listeners and we're going to have this other stuff to give you at that point. I think that's a really nice starting point for a podcast and just seems to work quite for a lot of the people I work with.

Harry:
And it keeps things manageable from a newbie's perspective, because they feel there's mile markers along the way that they can look to to say, okay, if I can make it to this point, then I can focus on the next ten and so on, because I think if you just saw it as one endless tunnel at some point, this is where the Podfading would start to kick in.

Colin:
Yeah, you're dead right there. Just looks (#50:35?), doesn't it? You've got to be podcasting for ever more. That's why I love doing it season-based because people come to expect that you're going to take off every couple of months. So, I tend to do like, well, actually I'm a bit erratic, but sometimes or maybe two months worth of episodes and then a month off and then I'll be one month solid like I did that one where I did daily episodes for the whole month and then took a couple of months off. People get to know that and they don't unsubscribe probably right away, they just wait for you to come back, because they enjoy the stuff you're putting out.

Harry:
Yeah, the other thing that's common now is this concept of binge listening. It's sort of comes from the binge watching of Netflix, but a friend of mine recently put out a ten part series called The Podcast Cast Producers and I had the benefit of actually being interviewed for a couple of the segments. It's the folks who run Podfly. Corey Coates and Jessica Rhodes, they partnered up and they interviewed a wide range of podcasters. They sort of just talked about podcasting from the podcast host perspective and it was a ten part series and it was really, really fascinating, because it's one of the first times that I actually remember binge listening to a podcast.

I mean, actually now that I think about it. I have done that in the past. I remember when I was first introduced to Pat Flynn, I went back and I started listening to the first couple and I just kept listening through and it's a sign of a podcast that's engaging enough for you that you'll actually go ahead and do that.

Colin:
That sounds really interesting. I'd love to get a link for that if you by chance.

Harry:
Yeah, as a fellow podcast geek, I'm sure you'll appreciate it.

Colin:
Yeah, definitely.

Harry:
Yeah, I think they're going to do a second season as well.

Colin:
Excellent, I'll look that up.

Harry:
So, what do you see as you continue to innovate and add seasons to your shows? What are going to be the biggest challenges for you as you look to grow?

Colin:
I think the podcast itself, I think some podcasters reach a point where they think that, you know, they've talked about everything they can within their topic and they start to struggle to get material out and I think that. I mean, it doesn't have to happen to everyone, by any means. I mean, some of the guys that do How to Podcast, we've already mentioned Cliff, Cliff Ravenscraft is doing like 300 odd episodes now, but he has completely transitioned away from the kind of stuff that he used to do, isn't he. He's doing a lot more personal stuff now.

So, I think that was one of the biggest challenges is how to, actually, maybe it's a question around, I was about to say how to stick to your initial aims, how to keep on point and how to keep your podcast focused, but actually maybe it's partly around whether we need to do that or whether actually it's find to decide at some point that this isn't working any more whether you need to moved to something else.

I feel like with my podcast, with PodCraft particularly, my aim is to create a set of resources where by if somebody comes to me and says, I'm looking to setup a podcasting website, how do I do that? I can just go, oh, season four, Podcraft, go and listen to it – sorry, series three, Podcraft, go and listen to it.

Harry:
Yeah.

Colin:
Somebody comes to me, equipment, oh, just go to season two of PodCraft. Go and listen to that. So, my aim is to have a series for just about every single question that people ask me that they can just go through and something that I'm working on just now is turning those series, seasons into courses as well. So, that means that the seasons will be, they're going to be content, they'll offer a good amount of information, but actually I will in the future be seeing courses based on those seasons which offer a lot more resources, a lot more in depth stuff, but it was around them and that type of stuff as well. In fact, that's something I'm going to be talking about at UK, sorry, at New Media Europe, their conference in the UK that's on in September. I'm doing a presentation on season-based producing, sorry, season-based presentation and podcasting and how that can lead into a product based funnel.

Harry:
That makes a lot of sense.

Colin:
Yeah, so, I think that's the challenge for me is building out those seasons and then once, I think, I've got a complete set, how do I, where do I go from there, because I don't plan to be doing PodCraft regularly forever, because I don't think it's a show which I'm just going to do random shows just to talk about something that's topical or whatever. I think it's more of an evergreen type of approach I want for PodCraft.

So, maybe I'll have to release a new podcast, which is actually just interviews like this, just talking to people, and start talking to them about podcasting or maybe I need to do a different podcast that will start to reach a difference audience that may come into The Podcast Host depending on what I'm doing at the time, but yeah, I think in terms of the podcast itself that's the main challenge I see at the moment.

Harry:
What's interesting is that one of the things you touched upon was this concept of repurposing your content and I think it's really great because you come from an education background and a lot of that is evergreen and I think that it's fantastic the fact that you'll be able to refer not only for generic questions to specific episodes, but hopefully you have some of the content already produced that you're going to use in your course.

Colin:
Yeah, exactly. Forms that base that's there already that you can embolden upon, I think.

Harry:
Something that I've done recently is I took the first 25 episodes and I repurposed it into an ebook. I just release it actually. It's called Around the Podcast Campfire. It's on Amazon. It's only $2.99, but it was just sort of an interesting exercise for me so I took it and I was working with a co-writer to help me organize the content, but what we basically did is take themes for each chapters and then we would pull out snippets of the conversation that talks about that topic, so there's a chapter on social media and the importance of good equipment, how to amplify your voice and it was just so funny how all the pieces came together and I was able to use snippets from all 25 interviews in there and that was a lot of fun to do.

Colin:
Yeah, that's really nice idea. How is that going?

Harry:
Slow.

Colin:
Sure.

Harry:
As with all things and I think I probably didn't pay close attention to the ebook marketing 101 that's out there and you're suppose to release for free for a long period of time and just get people excited about it and the thing is, I was sitting on it for such a long time, because I was waiting to release it in the right way and it's sort of like what you talked about with the perfection syndrome of trying to get it out and do it perfect the right way and I felt prey to that trap and I had, literally had the ebook sitting on my company for a good two to three months before I said wait a minute, I rather have it out there than not have it out released in the “perfect” release strategy.

Colin:
Absolutely, yes. Yeah, I think that's the thing. People just hold off and hold off the perfect conditions, but it never happens.

Harry:
No, it never does.

Colin:
But that's a really interesting idea. Have you thought about releasing it as an audio book?

Harry:
Yeah, I can do that as well, so I'll have to find someone with – maybe Scarlett Johansson can read it for me.

Colin:
That'll be nice, figure for me too as well.

Harry:
That shouldn't be too hard, right, we're famous podcasters, right.

Colin:
Well, exactly. We're media. No worries.

Harry:
I'll let you know how that plays out.

Colin:
Yeah.

Harry:
So, as we wrap up, what has got you most excited about podcasting in the coming months or coming year?

Colin:
In the coming months, the things that got me most excited right now is just the course, actually. So the course I am developing that I want to get out there is a beginner's, well, what is it now, I'm still kind of developing the concept right now, but it's going to be a way to get started, but beyond that a little bit as as well.

So, start a little bit after launch and maybe promoting for the first couple of months and it's, it deals with a lot of stuff I talked about in terms of getting past that perfectionism planned for your first ten episodes strategy, launch strategy, all that kind of stuff and we'll have loads of resources in there too, so I'm really excited to get that out there, because people keep asking me about it, because I've talked about it on my mailing list, I've talked about it with lots of my contacts.

So, I really just want to get that damn thing out there and on the market, but as suppose other than that, more generally I think, we actually, you mentioned the whole tools coming out now. The money coming into podcasting and I'm really interested to see what happens with all of this, because I think that's a lot of stuff in podcasting that's broken in terms of listen.

So, like, what of my missions at the moment is trying to get more people listening to podcasts. So, never mind making money out of it or whatever. I just want more people to enjoy podcasts and get into the medium and all that kind of stuff. So, everyone that I meet that at some point in the conversation, I'll bore them with the question. Do you know what a podcast is? Do you listen to podcasts? I'm trying to figure out ways to get people in to listening more easily, so I've got, in fact, I've created an URL in The Podcast Host called Listener's Guide and you can find it at ThePodcastHost.com, if you like. I can't remember what the address is. That's a bit useless at the moment, but yeah, I can maybe send you a link.

Harry:
Yeah, definitely send me that.

Colin:
If you're interested in having a look, but it's the listener's guide to podcasting and if you're, I mean, obviously if anybody is listening to this, they are already a listener, but if there's anyone that you know that you want to get into podcasting, send them allow there and I'd love to hear your thoughts on how well it works and what's missing. What problems people have when starting to listen to a podcast, because I am putting guides there around how to use, how to subscribe on Android, for example, apps you can use in Android, like video guides to getting subscribed, getting started, Apple, that type of stuff and I'll also trial in these thing I'm calling Pod Packs, which is essentially an RSS feed, which contains curated set of episodes around a particular topic.

So, I've got, in one of them I've got 30 episodes, which are what I think is a really good beginners guide to getting started in online business. So, I've got loads of episodes and they are from various different podcasters like Pat Flynn, you mentioned, James Schramko, I've got an episode of his in there, so there are things like getting started in email marketing using video for marketing. Content marketing strategies, that kind of thing.

What the intention is that I can meet people at a networking event and I can see, do you podcast? Do you listen to podcasting and they go, no. I say, well, let me show you this app. I'll get that on their phone and I'll subscribe them to that Pod Pack and that will be an introduction to 30 different podcasters, 30 different shows, and I'll help that listener to get into listening to podcasts and I'll also help everyone that's on that show, on that Pod Pack, so all these podcasts will hopefully get more subscribers from this person who maybe enjoys some of the episodes.

So, I think that's what's getting me excited just now is try to get more people listening and the fact that it is becoming a bit more mainstream, so actually people are willing to take the time to do it when I try and persuade them to.

Harry:
That's funny you take that approach and it seems so obviously, but a lot of people sort of ignore the listener, right, and maybe it's a testament to your as an educator.

Colin:
Yeah. It just seems like a much larger audience, isn't it, like you're trying to into making podcasts, but that doesn't go to the audience pool at all, doesn't it. It's the listeners we need.

Harry:
One of my strategies has been to, I do a lot of ride sharing here, so I imagine it's common there as well with Lyft and Uber. Every time I tend to go more with Lyft, but every time inevitably, I always ask the driver, so what do you do in your spare time when you're waiting to pick up passengers? Do you listen to a podcast? I just carry business cards. I have a business card just for the podcast and I say, well, you should check this one out and it's about half/half. Some don't listen, but the ones that do listen are able to rattle off their favorites right away.

Colin:
Yeah, excellent. Yeah, that's the thing isn't it, podcasting is so addictive. As soon as you get somebody listening to one show, they just falling to like another 15-20 shows, so it's a bit of a cascade.

Harry:
Yeah, I love it when people tell me that I don't listen to podcasts, because I don't find any that I've found interesting enough for me and I said, well, you must have a hobby or something that you are a fan of and then they say, well, I liked photographry and then I grab their phone and I find them like very, very easily the podcasts on photography and they're like, oh, wow, okay. I'll check these out.

Colin:
Yeah, definitely. Well, you know, that's kind of the idea behind the Pod Pack. So, I will hopefully do one for loads of different topics, maybe a photography one. So, for example, I could find 10 different shows on photography, find their most popular episodes, which will take people through sharp speed and (#63:55?) and all that kind of caper, so people can just subscribe to this one feed, they can find all these different shows and they can choose which ones they like the best and then subscribe to those actual shows. So, yeah. I have a bit of good feed back so far, but yeah, hopefully it'll build out a little bit.

Harry:
Very interesting, I like the concept of Pod Packs. You might have to trade mark that.

Colin:
Yeah, absolutely.

Harry:
Well, Colin, thank you so much. As you can imagine, when two podcast geeks get on the horn that we could probably talk for another couple of hours on the topic.

Colin:
Yeah, definitely.

Harry:
I really appreciate you making the time to come onto the show.

Colin:
It's been a pleasure to chat. Like you say, it's always good to talk about podcasting and I'm sure we can have another round and a few months and talk about developments, because I think there is when you're talking about exciting times, I think this is one of the most exciting times in podcast in a long time. It just seems like so much happening just now.

Harry:
Yeah, exactly. So, what's the best, I know you mentioned the website, but just as a recap, what's the best way social media for people to track you down?

Colin:
Sure, ThePodcastHost.com is the easiest place. That's ThePodcastHost.com and I can also be found at PodCraft.net for the podcast and @ThePodcastHost on twitter as well. I'm pretty much The Podcast Host just about anywhere.

Harry:
Sounds good.

Colin:
But yeah, I'd love to hear feedback and anything. That'll be cool.

Harry:
So, I usually like to throw a hash-tag referent in there at the end of the episode, just to see if people are paying attention. So, I think what we could do is hash-tag Pod Pack.

Colin:
Great, okay. Excellent.

Harry:
Is that POD PACK?

Colin:
Exactly, yes, that's it.

Harry:
Well, it is now if it wasn't before.

Colin:
Yeah.

Harry:
Hash-tag Pod Pack if you've made it this far to let Colin and I know that you had nothing else better to do in your day than listen to two folks talking about podcasting.

Colin:
Exactly. Cool. Well, great to speak to you Harry.

Harry:
Take care, have a great day.

Colin:
You too.

Harry:
So, thanks to Colin for coming on the show and bringing a unique perspective from across the pond. It's always nice to get a view on podcasting that is not America-focused and I'm glad for having that mutual contact in Liston that introduced us, because other wise I wouldn't have known of him and that's what's so fascinating about this, this podcasting world that we're in. You're one or two degrees of separation away from a brand new contact.

So, I would encourage you all to reach out and make contact outside of the normal circle of podcasting friends that you have and I think you'd be pleasantly surprised and you could have just a whole slew of guests just waiting for your show if you only stretch outside of your comfort zone and I think that's something that we should normally do.

So, I'm going to make a point to do that myself and just look for guests that are still podcasts, but doing something in a bit different or doing something on a topic that's different or from another country and I think that would just add a bit more flavor to the show and keep things interesting on my end. So, all the show notes can be found at PodcastJunkies.com/40 and again, ratings are always welcome.

Go to PodcastJunkies.com/iTunes. We've got a couple in last week. I'll read them off on the next episode after I've got a couple collected and the other thing that's out is the book, it's Around the Podcast Campfire. It's now available on Amazon. So, if you've signed up for the email list, then I'll be mentioning it there, if not, you can go to the PodcastJunkies.com webiste and you'll see the link for my ebook. I'm sorry, for the PDF, it's 8 Tools to Help Sky Rocket Your Podcast Production. It's a free, free PDF. It's a bunch of tools that I've used to help me become more productive in my podcasting and I'm giving that away. You can sign up for that, you'll be on the email list and then let you in on all the fun stuff, the goodies, and where you get the link to the Amazon kindle ebook that's now available for only $2.99.

So, I'm real excited. I've got actually three guests lined up for this Friday. So, that's going to be a fun John Lee Dumas style marathon of interviews, at least as far as I'm concerned. So, I'm looking forward to that and the good news about that is that it'll provide consistent content for the next month, which is always a good thing so I'm not scrambling for interviews. I just always try to have good guests, good guests I can relate to, that I've spoken to, that I know, they've friends with, because I think that just makes it for a more engaging conversation. So, thanks for listening. I really hope you enjoyed it. Again, if you've got suggestions for guests that you think would be a good fit for the show, shoot me an email. Harry@PodcastJunkies.com. Take care and have a fantastic week.

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